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The Official Television and Display Technology Thread - Enter of your own will.....(and leave with a lighter wallet)

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That's why a Very Bad And Wrong part of me keeps staring at the Sony A1 as prices start to fall ahead of the A9, because that thing is just a screen, and the 55" is basically the same height at the 49" XF90 that's my "I haven't really got room for a 55" OLED" backup once you include stands. 122.8x71.1cm if you're counting.

 

Of course, it's still over TWO THOUSAND POUNDS at the moment, or twice the XF90. But.

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Vizio’s PQ65 is getting insane reviews right now. Z9 levels of performance for 1/3rd the price point (this set is on sale for $1500 at Best Buy at the moment). Peak 2,000 nit in HDR, amazing black levels with FALD enabled, etc.

 

https://referencehometheater.com/2018/reference-ht-reviews/vizio-pq65-f1-image-analysis-review/

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https://www.slashfilm.com/war-on-motion-smoothing/

 

Quote

High-profile directors Christopher Nolan and Paul Thomas Anderson have reached out to television manufacturers to ensure that audiences at home are able to see films presented as closely as possible to the director’s original intention, and a new “reference mode” will implement the results of a new director’s survey.

 

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Vincent doesn't believe there will be a true hdmi 2.1 TV at CES 2019, 48gbps being the limiting factor for the soc. Hopefully they can get the rest of the features out, I'm not in the market for an 8k tv, but a 75 inch 4k is definitely on my list for 2019.

 

 

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Yes that was an interesting video. If he’s right that 2.0b can in fact do VRR...etc (should a manufacturer choose to provide a firmware update of course) then it does make true 2.1 support less essential.

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On 10/24/2018 at 2:54 PM, Angry the Clown said:

Yes that was an interesting video. If he’s right that 2.0b can in fact do VRR...etc (should a manufacturer choose to provide a firmware update of course) then it does make true 2.1 support less essential.

 

I just now watched that video. Yeah it sounds like the only negative to 2.0b with all of the 2.1 accouterments is the bandwidth needed for something like 8k, and there's no reason to wait for that.   

 

Also, Vincent videos are always worth watching just for his comedic delivery. 😆

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1 hour ago, Starhawk said:

 

I just now watched that video. Yeah it sounds like the only negative to 2.0b with all of the 2.1 accouterments is the bandwidth needed for something like 8k, and there's no reason to wait for that.   

 

Mmm. As I see it the roadblocks would still likely be that:

 

1) 2.0b devices seemingly require a  chipset that can be patched with all those interesting additional features, so not all existing chipsets may be created equal. Is the compatibility difference defined by 2.0b vs 2.0? I’m not sure.

 

2) That manufacturers would bother to update those chipsets even if it is possible.

 

Denon have only patched eARC into their latest mid to high end receivers. Is that because they have different chipsets compared to the more entry level options or is it because they’re deliberately choosing to deprive their cheaper models of an added feature? I’ve no idea.

 

Sadly I do think that companies will seize on 2.1 as a selling point for new devices so wouldn’t expect any patches beyond eARC even if a manufacturer happened to use a chipset capable of more. It’d be nice of manufacturers were more open about whether their current products can do VRR, QMS, ALLM, QFT and other new and confusing acrony, but we’re kind of lacking in companion devices to turn those into buzz words anyone knows about and can benefit from. That said, we know the X outputs VRR and we know some Samsung’s support VRR and ALLM.

 

It does make sense that we may not see displays with VRR...etc as a common feature until 2020 as that is when we can expect next gen game systems will which probably promote VRR quite heavily. For receivers they’d be smart to pre-empt that with 2.1 features by the end of 2019 in my opinion, whether in the shape of everything but the 8k bandwith or “full fat” 2.1, then at CES 2020 we’ll perhaps see actual 2.1 input displays. Who knows though? Some might even want to have it only on their forthcoming 8k displays.

 

Again I could not care less about 8k but I do think that those other aspects of 2.1 sound terrific and hugely beneficial. I definitely won’t replace my TV until 2020 at the earliest but, again, it’d be nice if manufacturers could be more forthcoming about what their existing chipsets are capable of.

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It’s not all 8k though. I’m interested in 4K HDR 120 FPS RGB which requires 2.1 Bandwith.

 

Actually just transmitting 4k60 HDR 12 bit RGB requires more than the 2.0 BW - this why they have to do color conversions and chroma subsampling today.

 

ALLM is just a flag so no bandwidth requirements there.

 

QMS is also just a set of flags to quickly negotiate frame rate/resolution so it doesn’t need 2.1 BW either

 

VRR itself does not require bandwidth but the target frame rates do. With 2.0 you could do up to 4k60 or 1080p120. Perhaps useful for current gen for games hitting 40fps and the like.

 

With the increased BW of 2.1 you could do up to 4k120HDR which would be potentially useful for next gen or PC.

 

QFT requires 2.1 BW at 4K because it’s all about transmitting the source frame as fast as possible to reduce lag.

 

I hope the industry focuses on FPS rather than 8k.

 

 

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4 hours ago, AlbertA said:

I hope the industry focuses on FPS rather than 8k.

 

 

 

From everything Digital Foundry talks about with regards to the hardware options on the table for next gen, we still probably shouldn’t expect native 4k at 60, even 30, across the board with every  new title if they also want to push graphical enhancements with significant generational leaps over the X and Pro. It’s likely to be a similar mix of native and not quite native 4k to what we have now, but hopefully with more 60fps titles.

 

To that end, I don’t think anyone will be thinking about 8k gaming for a very long time. 8k TVs will appear of course, and JVC’s latest top end projector does simulated 8k, all that is fine from the potential of upscaling (particularly with 70”+ displays).

 

Phil Spencer has said he wants to shift focus to framerates which is good, but again we’d surely be looking at 60fps targets at best next gen. Emphasis on targeting 60, and hyping up VRR, seems to be the way they will go to promote smoother performance with the new systems.

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I really am quite proud of the wonderful people I follow across social networks that I've received this post so many times since it went up yesterday.

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Okay, so I've (FINALLY) got around $1000 socked away for a 4K TV.  There's a couple on Rtings.com that look pretty good for 65" 4K HDR (TCL and the Vizio P Series.)

 

Anyone know if I'm better served trying to pick one up in the Before-Christmas crush or should I wait for the After-Christmas sales?  Looking to buy either at Best Buy or Costco locally, or Amazon online (unless someone has better suggestions for an online retailer?)

 

Thanks in advance, kids.  You're the greatest!  :)

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I’d wait. See if the price of the X900F drops to the 1K mark. It’s one of the best if not best TV in that price range. The 65inch TCL 6 series would be my second choice if your in a rush and want some money to spare.

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4 minutes ago, Romier S said:

I’d wait. See if the price of the X900F drops to the 1K mark. It’s one of the best if not best TV in that price range. The 65inch TCL 6 series would be my second choice if your in a rush and want some money to spare.

 

Well, I'm like 99% sure I'm getting an Xbox One X for Christmas, so I'd like to have a set fairly soon.  How soon do you think the X900F would drop?

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8 hours ago, Whooter said:

 

Well, I'm like 99% sure I'm getting an Xbox One X for Christmas, so I'd like to have a set fairly soon.  How soon do you think the X900F would drop?

 

No clue. Hence the patience.;)

 

Frankly, the 65inch version may not come down that low until next years models hit or at all given the 55in was mire my thinking. If you want something now, the 65in TCL’s are the way to go. Better performers than the Vizio’s in a few areas (and weaknesses in others) though you’ll be playing the panel lottery in terms of screen uniformity which is the Achilles heel of the TCL series. The dirty screen effect is quite noticeable on some panels. I’d buy from a local place that can handle easy returns in case you’re not happy with your panel (Best Buy for example).

 

For $1000, it’s a remarkable TV though. I paid $500 for my 55in and am still floored by the performance vs value you get. I think the 65in P series is closer to $1500 as well?

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9 minutes ago, Romier S said:

 

No clue. Hence the patience.;)

 

Frankly, the 65inch version may not come down that low until next years models hit or at all given the 55in was mire my thinking. If you want something now, the 65in TCL’s are the way to go. Better performers than the Vizio’s in a few areas (and weaknesses in others) though you’ll be playing the panel lottery in terms of screen uniformity which is the Achilles heel of the TCL series. The dirty screen effect is quite noticeable on some panels. I’d buy from a local place that can handle easy returns in case you’re not happy with your panel (Best Buy for example).

 

For $1000, it’s a remarkable TV though. I paid $500 for my 55in and am still floored by the performance vs value you get. I think the 65in P series is closer to $1500 as well?

 

rtings.com puts the P-Series ahead of the 65R215/217 and they're about the same price.

 

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/compare/tcl-r617-vs-vizio-p-series-2018/613/625

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Whooter said:

 

rtings.com puts the P-Series ahead of the 65R215/217 and they're about the same price.

 

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/compare/tcl-r617-vs-vizio-p-series-2018/613/625

 

 

 

...and CNET likes the TCL better.

 

https://www.cnet.com/reviews/vizio-p65-f1-review/

 

Pick your poison. Worth noting the TCL has more dimming zones. You can argue algorithm and implementation obviously. The P series at the same price seems like a quality TV so its up to preference, etc. I don't have a ton of experience with the P series but I do have quite a bit of experience with the TCL. The built-in Roku TV options and menu system are excellent and I've been pleased with its performance but I don't use it as my main set for movie viewing or TV watching (though I have done both from time to time). It's primarily a gaming set at a budge price for me. The P series looks to have better overall processing and does feature a 120hz panel vs the 60hz panel on the TCL which may sway you on the motion front. It also has one additional HDMI port over the TCL and better legacy connections (component/composite) as well if that's of importance.

 

There's arguments to be made for both.:)

 

The $1500 unit was the higher end P Quantum series by the way. Hence the confusion.

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11 hours ago, Romier S said:

 

...and CNET likes the TCL better.

 

https://www.cnet.com/reviews/vizio-p65-f1-review/

 

Pick your poison. Worth noting the TCL has more dimming zones. You can argue algorithm and implementation obviously. The P series at the same price seems like a quality TV so its up to preference, etc. I don't have a ton of experience with the P series but I do have quite a bit of experience with the TCL. The built-in Roku TV options and menu system are excellent and I've been pleased with its performance but I don't use it as my main set for movie viewing or TV watching (though I have done both from time to time). It's primarily a gaming set at a budge price for me. The P series looks to have better overall processing and does feature a 120hz panel vs the 60hz panel on the TCL which may sway you on the motion front. It also has one additional HDMI port over the TCL and better legacy connections (component/composite) as well if that's of importance.

 

There's arguments to be made for both.:)

 

The $1500 unit was the higher end P Quantum series by the way. Hence the confusion.

 

Fair enough, I think they only gave the TCL the edge due to the higher price of the P-Series at the time, though.  :)  

 

Seems like either set is going to be a pretty good buy for the price-point I'm looking at.  If I didn't already have a Roku Ultra, the TCL would be a slam dunk.  Guess I'll make a trip to Best Buy and look at them in person.   Thanks for the input, my friend.  🤜🤛

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42 minutes ago, Whooter said:

 

Fair enough, I think they only gave the TCL the edge due to the higher price of the P-Series at the time, though.  :)  

 

Seems like either set is going to be a pretty good buy for the price-point I'm looking at.  If I didn't already have a Roku Ultra, the TCL would be a slam dunk.  Guess I'll make a trip to Best Buy and look at them in person.   Thanks for the input, my friend.  🤜🤛

 

It wasn’t price alone. They gave the TCL higher marks on its HDR performance calling the P series less impactful by comparison. However, that’s one perspective and your best bet is definitely to take a look at both sets in person and see which floats your boat. It doesn’t look like you can go with wrong with either, frankly.

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At some point in the coming year I'll finally be in the market for a new projector.  My goal is to upgrade from my 10+ year old Optoma 1080p DLP,  to the latest and greatest Optoma 4K HDR $2000-ish projector.  I only say "Optoma" because I have in my head that my current mount will be able to attach to it whereas if I get another brand I'll have to change my mount somehow.  That might be wrong, or perhaps an overstated issue.

 

I'd like to invite perspective from any of you on my above pursuit.  I assume the onslaught of 2019 projectors will be worth the wait in 4K and HDR advancement.  Not sure when the typical release schedule is for this stuff.

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Oh man, I shouldn't have gone to projector central.  They're talking up this projector making me want it:

Epson Home Cinema 4010

https://www.projectorcentral.com/projector-news.cfm?2018-10-09-My-Friend-Iris&entry_id=758

 

Quote

The 4010 recognizes only HDR10 high dynamic range content, the most common form and the one found on all UHD Blu-ray discs—there is no support for the emerging HLG standard expected to take hold for streaming and broadcast, though this remains a rare feature among projectors

 

This is the bullshit I was hoping to avoid.  I don't want to get a projector, and then 2 years from now be annoyed that it doesn't support Netflix HDR or Amazon HDR.  What's the outlook for this HLG standard.  Do I have to wait another year to buy a reasonably price projector with support for the standards that matter?  Damn it.

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Regular HDR10 will be included no matter what other options like HLG, Vision, HDR10+, etc comes along.  At the same time, those other options may never come to projectors at all.  So if you are going to wait on more options, you may be waiting a long time.

 

That said, the 4010 is, I believe, very similar to my 5040ub.  I have no complaints about it with the exception of the HDMI board limits the available bandwidth meaning it can be hard to get the appropriate HDR signal(30 or 24 hz, no 60hz).  My Roku would not put out an HDR signal compatible with the Epson, but my UHD player and Fire TV do.

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2 hours ago, Eldorado said:

Regular HDR10 will be included no matter what other options like HLG, Vision, HDR10+, etc comes along.  At the same time, those other options may never come to projectors at all.  So if you are going to wait on more options, you may be waiting a long time.

 

That said, the 4010 is, I believe, very similar to my 5040ub.  I have no complaints about it with the exception of the HDMI board limits the available bandwidth meaning it can be hard to get the appropriate HDR signal(30 or 24 hz, no 60hz).  My Roku would not put out an HDR signal compatible with the Epson, but my UHD player and Fire TV do.

Man, so if it can't handle 60hz, what does that mean for PS4 games?  I guess that only matters if I get a Pro, which I do not currently have.  I prefer Roku as my STB, though in my home theater I use PS4 and Chromecast Ultra at the moment.

 

I read up on the differences between 5040 and 4010.  I honestly am not sure which one to get.  I like to think that going cheap always makes sense and then upgrading earlier.  Though I've had my current projector for over 10 years at this point.  Has it been that long?  It is a little crazy that it has been over 10 years and we're only now breaking into a different resolution.  And not really either, most of these projectors are actually 1080p chips.  I guess the real jump is HDR anyway.

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It will do 60hz, but not at 4k.   It's a bandwidth limitation of the HDMI board.  

 

I don't know how many "4k" projectors will have this limitation, but there are ups and downs to just about any projector right now.  The Epson isn't perfect, but it checks off enough boxes for me and had the lowest input lag of just about all the pixel-shifters right now.  Bill at theDigitalBits had a really good write up for the 5040.  

 

Of course, you could also just get a Sony real 4k model, but you will pay more than twice the 5040 just for the lowest end there.

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