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A Song of Ice and Fire - Game of Thrones - HBO Series

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Agree with all you said, Romier.  

 

Oh, and don't cut of HBO immediately.  Check out Chernobyl, a dramatization of the 1986 nuclear disaster.  Episode 1 was incredible.  Highest recommendation.  It's 5 weekly parts. You can afford another month!

 

Carlos.

 

 

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We're STILL waiting for book 6, The Winds Of Winter. I shouldn't really be reading any of this TV talk, but we're way past it being possible to avoid them all.

 

Dany's entire story has been one of her going "oh, I'm a sweet innocent dreamboat who's ever so sad that actions have inadvertently led to loads of people dying, yet again" so I'm not shocked that she's started to own it. My single biggest concern with both book and show is that for the longest time she might actually turn out to be "The Goodie", and if anything I've a hope this shows they're not going to fall for that easy out.

 

The whole story of A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the dangerous and corrosive nature of power. Whether that's an inflexible Ned refusing to treat those interested in him not getting killed with the respect their advice deserves, the number of ruthless tyrants getting killed by their own family members, or seeing the power standing next to you as the big threat, rather than the terrible threat of climate change coming over the hill.

 

What I don't see them doing anything about, sadly, is the audience power fantasy that is Hitgirl: Agent 17 and her disguise-switching stabby stabby ninja skills.

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I guess I'm in the minority here, but I really like how things are panning out, and I like that the characters are surprising me, turning out to be not-so-smart in some cases, and all that. I feel that's consistent with the writing of the show so far, at least.

 

I do find it amusing how people on social media — the same people who have no problem with character inconsistencies in comic book movies and TV shows — are pissed about Danny going psycho genocide. Did we really think she was going to be a caring leader after all the hints were dropped, after she asked Jon Snow to keep the secret to himself because she just wanted power oh so bad, and after Sansa saw it coming?

 

Regarding the dragons, they've been inconsistent since day one. I look at it this way: they're obviously sentient beings with personalities and strengths of their own. Treating them like D&D characters with stats (which I've seen a lot of - not calling out Romier here specifically) is exactly what's wrong with how people watch fantasy movies and TV in my opinion. Things don't get to be consistent because it's a videogame where the main character has to beat the final boss and win. There are no 20-sided dice. There are no RNGs with buffs and what-not.

 

Sandor's final scene was amazing. Qyborn's death was perfect. He was an insect that deserved to be squashed. Euron's final words and death were hysterical. Loved it. I even thought Jamie and Cersei's death was fitting and well done.

 

I really don't know how they would tie this all up and make everyone happy, but in my opinion, compared to other shows that had to do the same, they're doing it masterfully here.

 

Anyway, I had fun watching it last night and that's pretty much all I ask of my free time.

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Really ready for this to be over, not even speaking directly to Game of Thrones, but many series shouldn't realistically go past 5 or so seasons (and let's be real, the vast majority of series shouldn't go beyond about two seasons).

 

Last night's episode was better and yet, Dany's pivot really made no logical sense, foreshadowing != proper character development. It was still was far better than what was supposed to be the "ultimate" Battle of Winterfell episode if only because it got back to the moral ambiguities and showing that all of the power-seeking psychopaths are indeed psychopaths just as in real life.

 

2 hours ago, iainl said:

What I don't see them doing anything about, sadly, is the audience power fantasy that is Hitgirl: Agent 17 and her disguise-switching stabby stabby ninja skills.

 

Fair enough, though Arya is easily the most fully developed character in the entire series.

 

Oh, and HUGELY agree how much it sucks to see Tyrion turned into such a dunce in the last two seasons, it is baffling.

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I disliked the episode, as a lot of things that were built up were just discarded. however Danny’s “turn” is one of the few things that made sense, and has been building since the first season. I fully expected something like that to happen. I just did not expect John and Tyrion to be so stupid. At this point I just want Arya to kill then all and let Sansa rule.

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I was fine with Danny’s turn but, agree that it would have been better had it played out over a full season rather than a snap and turn all in one episode, however the signs have been there and have been building so I think it does fit the character. I’m liking this final season actually and still having fun watching but, it does feel rushed. The Blackwater battle felt more epic than the Kings Landing attack in a lot of ways and that’s a shame to me - I wanted an even more epic fight and it was more of a slaughter. I guess that fits in a way - I just can’t help but think some of this is down to the shorter season requiring things to be moved along quickly. Tyrion’s slide into stupidity has bothered me the most this season - I can roll with it and I’m very much looking forward to the last episode and how his story concludes but, I don’t like it. His character now feels like he’s missed too many obvious signs/opportunities than any should and i wanted the Tyrion from previous seasons: shrewd, adept at reading people and situations and a good tactician. He is none of those things now so I’m a little sad over that. 

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I don't think Tyrion's "slide" is that hard to figure out -- he's a clever man. That's it.

 

He isn't a Admiral Thrawn who knows everything, because he, um, knows everything.

 

He isn't Jim Kirk who comes up with a last minute plan that'll work because conventional writing demands it.

 

He's just a clever man. Clever enough to get this far, but not clever to solve the Dany Problem. Why is that so unconscionable? This is a show that said being honorable isn't enough for the hero to keep his head way back in season 1. We can add being clever to the pile of things that won't always work to protect you like honor, family, backstabbing, knowing secrets, being rich, living in an easily defensible castle, etc.

 

I'm not saying the show is perfect -- far from it. But I'm hearing really puzzling critiques.

 

Someone I know said "They wrecked Brienne's character!" because she had a teary goodbye. Because she isn't a person with feelings, I guess? Why isn't she allowed to have feelings?

 

I'm not being a grump; I really appreciate the complaints. Like I said, I don't think this is a perfect show. But some of the overwhelming and emphatic complaints have me puzzled.

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34 minutes ago, Robot Monkey said:

I don't think Tyrion's "slide" is that hard to figure out -- he's a clever man. That's it.

 

He isn't a Admiral Thrawn who knows everything, because he, um, knows everything.

 

He isn't Jim Kirk who comes up with a last minute plan that'll work because conventional writing demands it.

 

He's just a clever man. Clever enough to get this far, but not clever to solve the Dany Problem. Why is that so unconscionable? This is a show that said being honorable isn't enough for the hero to keep his head way back in season 1. We can add being clever to the pile of things that won't always work to protect you like honor, family, backstabbing, knowing secrets, being rich, living in an easily defensible castle, etc.

 

I'm not saying the show is perfect -- far from it. But I'm hearing really puzzling critiques.

 

Someone I know said "They wrecked Brienne's character!" because she had a teary goodbye. Because she isn't a person with feelings, I guess? Why isn't she allowed to have feelings?

 

I'm not being a grump; I really appreciate the complaints. Like I said, I don't think this is a perfect show. But some of the overwhelming and emphatic complaints have me puzzled.

 

I've been pretty clear in my critiques of the show so I'm not sure what's puzzling.

 

Brienne's character arch ended in episode 2. She has served no narrative purpose other than to bed Jamie whereas her death during the White Walker battle would have provided that episode some much needed weight and emotional depth. I'd argue the same for Jamie, frankly but at least that's a worthwhile discussion to have as to whether you bought into his going bitch made for Cersei. At least that's within character for him but as noted previously, it doesn't exactly wash with the redemption arch that's been played with for a few seasons. Again, that's worth arguing but what exactly did we gain from Brienne surviving the Long Night episode? (or Podrick for that matter) The previous episode to that provided substantial (and emotional) closure for her. What did her relationship with Jamie accomplish? To provide some "conflict" for Jamie to have to choose between her and Cersei? That may have worked in the hands of better writers. It was about as effective as a wet fart for me. Could they give her something worthwhile to do in the last episode? Sure. Like I said, I'm not hopeful.

 

The Tyrion criticism isn't expecting him to be Admiral Thrawn and that's a pretty sweeping brush your painting with, frankly. I'm also not asking him to "solve the Dany problem" but the decision to let Varys hang in the wind given the continued deteriorated state of Dany and her downright loathing of him and his failed judgement most of this season rings false. It's simply not something that's consistent to me with the Tyrion I've been watching for 7 seasons now. Even if we've  limited our expectations of him to just being a clever man that doesn't mean he ceases to have established loyalties or abandons critical thinking for blind fealty. Consistency of character matters for big moments like that to work for me, personally.  Feel free to disagree there but it doesn't sit well with me and just made him out to be a moronic sycophant at best. You could argue that he used Varys as a means to curry favor with Dany to get her to ease off of leveling King's Landing but given his relationship with Varys and what they've gone through? Again, in the hands of better writers with more time to develop these character turns....

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I'm putting aside your response to the Brienne question, because the specific comment I was describing is from someone in my personal life, not your critique (I'm usually a week or two behind on the show and miss a lot of comments because of my spoiler fear). I'm willing to disagree with you because I'm contrary, but I really wasn't talking about your comments.

 

But as to your feelings on Tyrion, I don't think my Thrawn comparison is at all out of place. Either Tyrion acts like omnisciently clever character or we see his behavior in the last season. He wanted to believe in Dany so badly he overlooked signs he shouldn't have (in hindsight). That's very human. He wants what's best for people, and therefore doesn't think fomenting a new civil war with Dany and Jon in opposition is a wise choice. Varys wants the best for people and decided that a possible civil war is the wise choice. So Tyrion had to make a shitty choice -- turn in Varys, avoid the civil war and at the same time maybe earn some leeway from Dany to influence her decision-making towards his goals orrrrrr help a buddy start a civil war he didn't agree with.

 

I think this is pretty consistent with TV Show Tyrion and Varys, for that matter. I they're the only 2 characters on the show who appeared to seek power in order to do what's best for the regular people of the realm. Everyone else who wanted power had an angle, like Dany who thought she was entitled to power.

 

And keep in mind, I'm puzzled by this criticism of Season 8 Tyrion. I don't think the criticism is wildly crazy or capital "W" wrong. I just disagree with it.

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It's the simple things that bother me. After watching this past Sunday's episode, it dawned on me we practically waited two years for what is essentially rushed content. It doesn't surprise me that we got six solid seasons with what I consider to be an excellent compromise between television and book writing. But once we got much farther past the books, we got what felt like a very rushed season seven followed by a very compressed season eight that took two years to put together. Something's not jiving here.

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Honestly, of all the things that are wrong with this season, I don't really like where they went with Arya.  At times, she's lived up to the ninja assassin badass that she'd been training to be, but then there were times like the library in the battle of Winterfell that made no sense (there's no reason she should have had any problems with that situation given what she's already been through).  I kind of get the "don't live for revenge" message from Sandor, but to just give up so close to her target?  Part of me still hoped she'd hang around and skewer Cersei at the end (or maybe even that she'd try and Jamie would get the drop on her), but to have her turn back, and then give her even more plot armor to get past the dragon attack?  Hopefully it's worth it...

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On 5/13/2019 at 5:47 PM, Magness said:

I was fine with Danny’s turn but, agree that it would have been better had it played out over a full season rather than a snap and turn all in one episode, however the signs have been there and have been building so I think it does fit the character. I’m liking this final season actually and still having fun watching but, it does feel rushed. The Blackwater battle felt more epic than the Kings Landing attack in a lot of ways and that’s a shame to me - I wanted an even more epic fight and it was more of a slaughter. I guess that fits in a way - I just can’t help but think some of this is down to the shorter season requiring things to be moved along quickly. Tyrion’s slide into stupidity has bothered me the most this season - I can roll with it and I’m very much looking forward to the last episode and how his story concludes but, I don’t like it. His character now feels like he’s missed too many obvious signs/opportunities than any should and i wanted the Tyrion from previous seasons: shrewd, adept at reading people and situations and a good tactician. He is none of those things now so I’m a little sad over that. 

 

This.  They do a really good job letting the camera sit on characters for a really long time this season.  Letting you soak in the moment.  Letting the characters soak in the moment.  That very long shot of Danny deciding whether she would go all MAD QUEEN was great.  You'd think it would be drawn out, but it wasn't.  I liked all of their very long moments from this season.

 

I can totally see people not buying her turn,  but I totally buy it.   I really love the arc for her given the history.  And I love how her army captain guy is all-in with the rage-killing.   It puts one person in Danny's corner which I think is important.  

 

My biggest problem with the show, is so stupid, and comical, that it circles around and becomes fine.  It is basically this.  Every character in the show has the space stone, and can teleport to anywhere else in the world if it serves the plot.  The writer's just don't care.  Everyone is Thanos.  Just deal with it fuckers.  I'm fine with it.  Whatever.

 

 

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I mean, I didn’t totally hate that. Some decent character moments there and I liked the simplicity with which the Dany thing was handled. There’s plenty of WTF shit in there as well but again, I didn’t hate it. Drogon basically peacing the fuck out made me laugh. (missed opportunity to have Bran warg into him to find him there at the end)

 

Amusing that John being a Targaryen amounted to almost nothing in the end.

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1 hour ago, Romier S said:

I mean, I didn’t totally hate that. Some decent character moments there and I liked the simplicity with which the Dany thing was handled. There’s plenty of WTF shit in there as well but again, I didn’t hate it. Drogon basically peacing the fuck out made me laugh. (missed opportunity to have Bran warg into him to find him ther at the end)

 

Amusing that John being a Targaryen amounted to almost nothing in the end.

I think it was the only reason he didn’t get eaten. If anyone else had killed Dany I think they would have been burnt to nothing. I’m not certain Jon could be burned. 

 

Overall, the finale was probably as good as it could have been considering the hand the season had dealt. But I was far from blown away. 

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1 hour ago, Romier S said:

Amusing that John being a Targaryen amounted to almost nothing in the end.

 

I was thinking the same. Could only explain it away with the killing of Dany making it a non-starter due to the conflict it’d bring?

 

Also wondering why they even needed a Nights Watch anymore, but I think they had that even before the white walkers. 

 

Loved a bunch of shots in this episode, that one of Dany spreading her dragon wings, the three Starks walking in the same direction at the end, but on separate paths, Drogon coming out of the snow, Sansa being crowned, lots of good visuals. 

 

But it still more logic defying moments like Jaime’s hand being visible and Tyrian moving like 3 bricks to uncover their bodies. 

 

Overall I was surprised how ok I was with how the remaining characters were wrapped up. 

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Too sappy for me, but if you go with the take

Spoiler

that Brann wanted the throne all the while and was the ultimate chess master,

then I guess it works ok.  

 

 

Carlos.

 

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6 hours ago, Starhawk said:

 

Also wondering why they even needed a Nights Watch anymore, but I think they had that even before the white walkers. 

 

The whole point of the Night's Watch was to guard the wall, and the purpose of the wall was to protect the land from the white walkers. But as time has progressed and people forget, the Night's Watch simply turned into a place for robbers and rapers to serve out their "punishment". The show sort of does an okay explanation for how a group of noble people who sacrificed their lives and livelihood to defend against an enemy that faded away into myth (until recent events) suddenly became a penal colony whose punishment is a taking away of life and livelihood. I'm guessing the punishment part still functions.

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This season has had a lot of drawn-out shots and scenes.  And I've liked that a lot.  They hold on characters, in silence, in thought.  However, this episode, in particular the wrap-up shots of characters taking their final places before we hit the credits... riding off into the sunset moments. 

 

They should have had a single dramatic shot for each character and then moved on.  Less would have been more.  I almost think in the table scene they didn't even have to have dialog, they could have all sat down, looked at each other, and then we could have zoomed out to a long shot as they started business.  I thought they did less with more and not the other way around  at the end of this episode.

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