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Romier S

Captain America Civil War - Trailer debut

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Went to see it after dropping the kids off at school this morning.  First adult movie in over five years I've seen in a theater.  I'll just echo that it is amazing.  I just can't believe what they pulled off, it is so dense but never feels bloated.  Just amazing.

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Saw it.  This movie is dense!  Tons to talk about.  I agree with all of the good things people have said.  I'll move onto the negatives for me.

 

The "superheroes are the bad guys" sentiment in Daredevil, Batman vs. Superman, and now Civil War.  Come on.  New York was the Avengers' fault?!?!?!  Really!  It is a terrible argument, and I cannot stand that that, and the other two examples, are the basis for the whole fucking plot.  I buy that people want oversight.  But I don't buy the three examples he gave in the war room at the beginning.

 

This movie is so ambitious.  And they pull so much of it off, it is remarkable how good it is.  But for me, most of it is good, not great.  The "conflict" feels like the conflict in an A-team episode.   In Winter Soldier, they shocked us with the Nick Fury assassination.  In this movie, the ultimate climatic conflict in the airport, while awesome in and of itself, had no stakes in the movie.  They weren't really fighting.  It was like two brothers wrestling.  It was like a cartoon.  Yeah yeah, they try to throw in that thing that I won't spoil here even though it is in the commercials.  But given the scale and grander of these super powered beings, it had as much stakes as a bunch of children pretending to be ironman and captain america in their back yard.  It was a play fight.  Despite the one metaphoric bloody nose.

 

Another major problem is that Bucky, who is the damsel in distress or the MacGuffin of the movie, is exactly that.  And nothing more.  He's just a heartless object with no soul.  We're supposed to care about him to be invested in the outcome, but he's the weakest character in the movie.  We're forced to vicariously care for him through Steve Rogers.  This compounds with the "play fighting" to diminish my stake in the outcome.  How am I supposed to relate to Roger's actions if I don't relate to the object of his actions, his best friend Bucky?

 

So yes, this movie is jam packed with so much good, and they make work and do well so many things.  But because of the above fundamental flaws, it doesn't come together in a way that knocks it out of the park for me.

 

Avengers

Winter Soldier

Civil War

Iron Man

Guardians of the Galaxy

.....

or something like that.

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Keith, I concur on Bucky, way too much Bucky for my liking. Overreliance, on an underdeveloped character, and as the glue binding multiple Captain America movies. Also, the bonding between Cap & Buck over old memories feels particularly forced in this movie, which is a shame considering how impressively they handle much of the rest of this movie.

 

Did you watch the end credits? (My reaction, 'Oh-no, not again!')

 

Spider-Man was fun. I'm looking forward to seeing this version again in the pending Spidey movies. (Might we see him again in another crossover? Has that been discussed?)

 

Black Panther was enjoyable as well. Bad ass mo-fo!

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Re: Bucky, that was the core of my problems with the film; whatever the reasons for him committing particular acts of violence and murder, Cap just seems to argue that he should be ultimate arbiter of who's good and who's bad, and Bucky is his friend.

 

Having subsequently watched the first Cap film again I get that he feels that way a lot more than I remembered, but that's still not reason enough not to bring him in for the world's safety.

 

Re: airport fight, though, I liked that the one team is trying to escape while the other tries to stop them, rather than it just being about killing each other.

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Re: Airport. Yeah, them trying to escape. You know, that is a good/safe motivation for the scene. But I guess it never stuck with me. Through most of the fight I forgot why they were fighting. I thought of it as a scene from Gladiator. But I guess I'm wrong. Although maybe it was lost on me because it was truly just an excuse to make the coolest superhero battle ever. Maybe if Bucky had 30 minutes to live, the clock was ticking, and he actually died at the end of the battle ... Something like that would have locked me in. MORE SUPERHERO DEATHS

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Bucky is not just a friend, but like a brother to Steve. The guy used to stand up for him when he got his ass kicked . Then they served for a while together during WWII. Steve thought he died. Would you not fight for someone you care about and was such a major part of your life, especially when you know it was not their fault?

 

And that was the entire point of the airport battle. It was pretty much a big capture the flag, they were not dying to hurt each other badly. Which why what happens at the end of it more tragic.

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Bucky, for me, helped the film still feel grounded as a Captain America sequel and not just Avengers 2.5, and it's something I appreciated. It demanded one hell of a balancing act to pack all this stuff into Civil War, but I really do think they pulled off what they set out to achieve in being both a Cap sequel and paving the way to the next "phase" of the movies. I don't disagree that Bucky as a character would benefit from being more fleshed out, however, but is that really a criticism to target at Civil War or one that is perhaps better directed at The First Avenger (and even there would it be fair criticism given that they probably were not 100% sure on going down the Winter Soldier/Civil War route when they made the first movie). 

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Dan I'm pretty sure they knew where they would go with that. It's one of the biggest Capt stories of all time.

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That may be, but if you look to interviews with the Russo brothers, writers Christopher Marcus and Stephen McFeely, it's clear that even with the knowledge of the storylines they were going to tackle in the Cap sequels, there was still a lengthy process when prepping Winter Soldier, and again with Civil War, when they would then try to figure our the hows, whats and whys of the story structures within how to make it all work within the cinematic universe and what characters they were going to call on.

 

Its a difficult thing because even if Marvel knew they wanted to do the Winter Soldier and Civil War storylines from the start, they could never be 100% sure The First Avenger was going to work. Feige is, rightly, modest about every film they make regardless of what we may feel about Marvel's ability to just print money no matter what they turn out. So to that end, it would mean having to be careful with Bucky when they were doing the first movie. The later films would have benefited from more set up, but First Avenger still had to play to newcomers that all the phase one movies had to attract, so there would always be a risk of too much Bucky dragging the first movie down. So that's really what I was getting at. You can only lay so much ground work for future films when you don't know how well the first one will be received, and don't know precisely how any sequel is going to be written. With that in mind I think they did a really admirable job with the Cap trilogy and tying them all together.

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Of course. That's first phase was a major gamble. They had no idea if any of the origin films would succeed, yet continue in future movies. But they did know they wanted the Bucky story to happen if it did, in some form down the line.

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Cap did not know he was innocent. He just didn't want Bucky killed. He chose saving his friends life over the world's need to capture or kill an international terrorist. Even though Bucky was framed in this case, he is guilty of dozens of assassinations and terrorists acts. Sure, he's insane, so it is tragically not his fault. But he is a dangerous murderer that should be captured or killed. And Rogers chose his friendship over the safety and justice of the greater public.

 

That's fine. That's love. It is a good story conflict for Rogers.

 

My issue with Bucky isn't that he wasn't previously developed. It is that in this movie only he wasn't much more than a robot. Vision was more human than he was. He did have two moments. One was a smile, which was funny and great. And one was an anecdote. They should have worked in a bit more of that in between chase scenes and explosions.

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Cap did not know he was innocent.

But he knew the one lousy photo wasn't enough evidence to prove guilt ;)

 

Saw it last night & thoroughly enjoyed it. Definitely a nice book-end to the 'Winter Soldier' story.

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He was trying to capture his friend while making sure he wasn't killed. And the guy was experimented on and brainwashed, he didn't go around killing people because he was insane. Plus I'm pretty sure they established Bucky is very aware he is still a danger, which is why he chose what he did at the end.

 

I thought the first Cap did a good enough job of establishing what Bucky meant to him, so I guess it didn't really bother me.

 

I thought there were plenty of ramifications from this movie, though not as immediately apparent as the destruction of SHIELD, there is enough that it should have a pretty big impact on the next Avengers movie.

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You have empathy for both Steve and Cap and it is ultimately all about them, their different values and their shared ones.

Both Steve and Cap, huh? And their differing values?

 

Dan, didn't you clowns invent the English language? I guess it is up to us Yanks to perfect it.

 

I quite liked it. Not as good as Winter Soldier, but expertly balanced until the end. I'm not certain that the transition to the final three way fight totally works. Part of that is my bias that Tony, pre-emotional gut punch, is right and my favorite character Cap is wrong (which I like, by the way). But the emotional gut punch (which isn't very surprising since it was hinted at severely in WS) overshadows the legitimate debate about who should have authority over such beings. Instead of addressing that, we get to watch Tony get beat up by the man who killed his parents and the friend who betrayed his friendship to protect said man, right after processing it. I get it, but it's a little ugly.

 

Still, expertly balanced. The airport fight was a thing of beauty, with exactly the right doses of superheroed spectacle and character examination. Loved the intros for Spidey (and so did my audience) and T'Challa.

 

Anyways, solid A-. I agree with the criticisms and the raves in equal measure. Do want to shout out the second unit directors as well (Leitch and Stahelski - directors of John Wick)...action scenes were again top notch.

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It was a very personal story amid all the big set pieces so I thought it ended in a good way. I agree that the registration act is something that should be further examined, and since they did not sweep it away like the comic series it is loosely based on, my hope is that they will carry it over into other movies.

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"Insane by reason of Brainwashing"

 

Some say little people.  Others say midget.

 

The point is that he is out of his mind, dangerous, and cannot be trusted.  For some people it is trauma.  Or chemical imbalance.  Or genetic predisposition.  For him it was brainwashing. In all those examples a human being's sanity is blown by something out of their control.  The fact that another human being brain raped Bucky earns him a unique level of sympathy in this story.  It doesn't change the fact that his head is a bag full of cats.

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"Insane by reason of Brainwashing"

 

Some say little people. Others say midget.

 

The point is that he is out of his mind, dangerous, and cannot be trusted. For some people it is trauma. Or chemical imbalance. Or genetic predisposition. For him it was brainwashing. In all those examples a human being's sanity is blown by something out of their control. The fact that another human being brain raped Bucky earns him a unique level of sympathy in this story. It doesn't change the fact that his head is a bag full of cats.

Oh, sounds like you are going to love it when Steve dies, Bucky takes up his shield and new Capt goes even further outside the law! Has Cap ever donned a Black & Silver suit? Would be a fitting look!

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Bucky, for me, helped the film still feel grounded as a Captain America sequel and not just Avengers 2.5, and it's something I appreciated. It demanded one hell of a balancing act to pack all this stuff into Civil War, but I really do think they pulled off what they set out to achieve in being both a Cap sequel and paving the way to the next "phase" of the movies. I don't disagree that Bucky as a character would benefit from being more fleshed out, however, but is that really a criticism to target at Civil War or one that is perhaps better directed at The First Avenger (and even there would it be fair criticism given that they probably were not 100% sure on going down the Winter Soldier/Civil War route when they made the first movie).

 

Pretty much. I'm amazed at how much this is Steve's movie considering how easily it could have turned into Avengers 3.

 

I'll echo a lot of the commentary - I loved it. It has its flaws. Zemo continues the tradition of bland villains even if he's just a means to get these teams to fight and the trained assassins switcheroo is kind of blah as well but they nail a good majority of what they went after here.

 

Ryan Coogler's Black Lanther film can't come soon enough and Tom Holland as Spidey was inspired casting. Loved his intro and participation in the film. Thank you, Sony for smartening up and lending Spider-Man back to Marvel Studios. It just /felt/ so right.

 

The Infinity War is in good hands with the Russo brothers.

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I had my viewing yesterday, and I really like it.  I put it on par with The Winter Soldier.  My favorite part was easily the airport fight.  It was the most enjoyable major event in a major movie in a long time.  The fight choreography and sense of humor was miles above what was in Age of Ultron (which honestly gets more boring with each watching).  I didn't mind that the villain was nothing more than a plot device as it allowed the movie to focus on the deteriorating relationship between the leads.  Given the huge quality of The Winter Soldier and this, it just makes the disparity with the first Captain America even wider.  The only comparison I can think of is the difference between the first two Harry Potter movies and basically the six that followed.  It's just that jarring.

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