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The Official Television and Display Technology Thread - Enter of your own will.....(and leave with a lighter wallet)

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I can't really afford either, and our living room layout means even a small curve is impossible (snug is way, way off-axis). I'm just having tech envy. I'll get better.

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The pixels switching off on OLED when viewing something that isn't in the display's native 16:9 ratio is really quite striking. You are drawn into the used image area in a way I hadn't quite anticipated as the unused area disappears to the point where your brain kind of disregards it completely. That's true even with bias lighting and being able to see the frame of the set. In fact the bias lighting even enhances the effect. It's certainly unique for a TV. Wonderful stuff.

 

OLED seems to handle film grain incredibly well without any anomalies inherent to the technology getting in the way too. The lack of pwm noise in the display for example, noise that my plasma had (all plasmas for that matter) allows for OLED to render a very faithful image indeed. Criterion's disc of Shadows is one of my go to test discs for grain and it looks superb on the LG.

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About to unhook cables from KURO and disconnect it from the mains ahead of tomorrow.

 

Its final hurrah last night was my finishing up a replay of Ico that I had been promising myself for months.

 

giphy.gif

 

 

Was this the original "television conundrum" result?!?!?!?  Oh no, truly a sad day indeed.

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It was indeed. It would have been 10yrs old come Nov/Dec and it still had life left in it. I can't imagine a new TV ever lasting me as long but so far, a/v wise the LG is definitely proving to be a worthy successor. It may only be a set to hold me over until I can rationalise a bigger and brighter display, but I am actually very happy I saved over £1000 right now vs having gone for the Sony, as much as I wanted the bigger screen and ability to get as much as possible out of HDR.

 

I watched some older Disney animation last night (Mulan) and it was spectacular. OLED is definitely the best if you want to squeeze every last bit from 1080p and the regular rec709 colourspace.

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I try not to think about it. :)

 

Noticed a bit of vertical banding for the first time last night whilst watching Glengarry Glen Ross on Blu-ray. I then noticed a little when watching Frank after, and Frank had another issue with some marcoblocking in the blacks in one scene. I think I can defeat a lot of this, however, since right now I am only using basic settings offered up by AVForums. The macroblocking seems to be brightness/gamma dependent if looking to diminish its presence on screen, so I can address that when I do my first proper calibration pass, though I need to check if the film itself is not just badly compressed. I had gamma at 2.4 for ISF dark but changing to 2.2 and bt.1886 noticeably reduced the blocking issue, and interestingly I have noticed many pro calibrators are working with either of those settings vs 2.4. I've more reading to do on that subject, but several seem to target 2.3/2.35..

 

The banding is more interesting. The TV has done two compensation cycles now (I know it's doing one when the USB powered bias light fails to switch off immediately with the TV and stays on for 5-10mins, you also hear the TV 'click' when it is in standby and has completed a cycle). If I bring up grey card tests I can see the panel has bands between 5% and 25% grey, so again at pretty low levels and it took four days of viewing  a variety of content to even spot it. I'll keep an eye on it so see if future cycles improve it at all, and will consider doing a manual cycle in a week or so if I think this is going to be a problem for me (I've noticed a good number of ISF calibrators do not recommend doing a manual cycle if possible, but since it is there in the user menus it presumably cannot do any harm if needed). 

 

So I'll do a preliminary pass with my colorimeter and HCFR at some stage one evening this week I think. I'm still working through pages and pages of AVS and AVForums threads about LG's settings, what to touch, what never to touch (the colour management system in the menus of LGs OLEDs is completely broken apparently, and should never be changed)...etc

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Curiosity got the better of me and I ended up doing a manual 1hr compensation cycle last night and it made an enormous difference when evaluating full screen greyscale fields afterwards. Really only very faint vertical bands left at 5% and 10% now. That should improve further with future passes. It's an interesting feature of OLED TVs. Reminds me somewhat of sensor cleaning in a dSLR.

I'm probably going to do my first greyscale calibration this weekend as I'd like to get more hours on the clock and go through a couple more standard automatic cycles (I'm into just leaving Rick and Morty on in the background on Netflix to ensure the TV gets enough daily usage :) ). I'm still reading up on what the purpose of the OLED light slider is and how the contrast slider and calibrating contrast on these sets differs to other technologies. I may take some peak light readings ahead of Saturday just to get an advance idea of the brightness I need to target day and night in my environment.

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Actually had time to fiddle with a preliminary daytime greyscale calibration in HCFR. There's some fine tuning required but already just using the 2pt controls it's made a visible difference to the shadow noise I was seeing perviously, so the results are as I expected and I should be able to deal with that issue to a much greater degree when I have more time to sit and do things properly. That scene from Frank barely shows any posterization now, nor does the opening of The Matrix (sidenote: that REALLY needs a 4k release as the Blu is so dated coming from a shared bit starved HD DVD master). 

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Curiosity got the better of me and I ended up doing a manual 1hr compensation cycle last night and it made an enormous difference when evaluating full screen greyscale fields afterwards. Really only very faint vertical bands left at 5% and 10% now. That should improve further with future passes. It's an interesting feature of OLED TVs. Reminds me somewhat of sensor cleaning in a dSLR.

 

I'm probably going to do my first greyscale calibration this weekend as I'd like to get more hours on the clock and go through a couple more standard automatic cycles (I'm into just leaving Rick and Morty on in the background on Netflix to ensure the TV gets enough daily usage :) ). I'm still reading up on what the purpose of the OLED light slider is and how the contrast slider and calibrating contrast on these sets differs to other technologies. I may take some peak light readings ahead of Saturday just to get an advance idea of the brightness I need to target day and night in my environment.

 

I mentioned its a good idea to run at least one manual cycle right off the bat for that reason. It immediately improves the overall panel issues right off the bat and as you said, with time and more automatic passes - it will continue to improve.

 

OLED light ended up setting at 36 for my calibration for standard ISF dark. That seems to be around the general consensus. 35-36. Some have said 28, but that's way too damned dim for me.

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I mentioned its a good idea to run at least one manual cycle right off the bat for that reason. It immediately improves the overall panel issues right off the bat and as you said, with time and more automatic passes - it will continue to improve.

Yeah, it wasn't all that noticeable on content the other night when I first spotted the bands, but once it caught my eye during Glengarry Glen Ross I started looking for it. It prompted me to throw up a 25% field on screen after the movie and it was quite bad. Now it is almost perfectly clean at 15% and above, and subtle at 5% and 10% (unlikely to be visible on content now even if it does not improve further).

 

It took that quick 2pt greyscale pass to eradicate the posterization errors I was seeing above black. Now that I have peace of mind there I will likely clear the settings and do a 20pt greyscale calibration from scratch at the weekend. For ISF Dark I'd like to target 2.4 in general but target 2.2 at 5% and 2.3 at 10% which should give me some punch at the high end and allow for some shadow detail at the low. It's an approach Vincent from HDTV Test uses I believe.

 

This will be my first 20pt calibration so I think it will take a few attempts.

 

OLED light ended up setting at 36 for my calibration for standard ISF dark. That seems to be around the general consensus. 35-36. Some have said 28, but that's way too damned dim for me.

 

It's going to differ remarkably depending on the room's ambience, really. I've noticed people's B6 settings for the OLED Light do also differ quite wildly compared to general E and G settings for things like that (perhaps it is indeed true that the E and G can get just that tiny bit brighter). Given OLEDs infinite contrast ratio the contrast slider works a little differently than I am used to when you throw up a pluge pattern. It's so CRT like in being difficult to make clip, so you're free just to use OLED Light pretty much exclusively for targeting 35ftl (120nits), then doing greyscale, then going back to double check light output. It's the back and forth that makes it all time consuming but I'm enjoying the process of learning how the technology behaves.

 

The OS of the TV is really very thoughtful. I love how you can be watching one thing, Netflix for example, but switch on an HDMI connected device and it will automatically bring up an option to switch to that device on screen. The UI could be better for making getting around calibration easier, but for day to day use, jumping from app to app, cycling through devices...etc it is absolutely brilliant. I'm probably the only one who actively went to select the cute animated bird as the remote pointer. :)

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I'm almost ready for a new TV to replace my 50" Panny (god rue the day), but I'm still not convinced. Things are changing so rapidly, format wars are locking people out of digital streaming services, and prices are diving that I feel I'd be a fool to make a move right now.

 

Thanks for being my beta testers, though, friends. This is getting interesting. Reminds me of the days when people were lugging 200lb RPTVs into their living rooms just to get 1080p.

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I don't know. I proved a decade ago how willing I was to hold out for a good 1080p display. This year actually felt like an OK time to move into the 4k/HDR era. I'm satisfied with the growing availability of content, and was knowingly accumulating games via my PS4Pro and UHD discs in anticipation of upgrading the TV eventually, and prices on 2016s best displays were difficult to ignore in the end. Brexit also played a part as the UK potentially faces uncertainty about the cost of these kind of things in the years ahead, but being satisfied with the options and content available to me now drove my decision more than anything else in the end.

 

There's not all that much left to evolve in this generation of TVs, really. I think we're spoilt for choice for fantastic sets right now too. I'm sure we'll see displays hit 4000nits within 5yrs, but feature wise high frame rate support for broadcast TV is likely to be the next thing manufacturers make a fuss about. There's also the lingering issue of whether HDR10+ becomes an adopted standard, and/or whether more conpanies see reason to adopt Dolby Vision support.

 

All current technologies need a major breakthrough to progress significantly though, or we'll be left waiting 5-10yrs for something like microLED/organicLED to ever become an affordable reality for consumers.

 

Whereas OLED needs to find a way to hit much higher peak brightness values, edge lit LED needs to do the opposite whilst simultaneously eradicating the shortcomings of edge lit panels. I'd say there is potentially more chance of the latter happening than the former as so many displays are edge lit LED driven and that's where a lot of R&D is, and we can see that edge lit displays are cleary getting better and better. The alternative to edge lit progress is finding a way to put sophisticated full array local dinming systems into thinner, and more importantly cheaper, TVs.

 

OLED definitely strikes me as a legitimate successor to plasma for those of us who have moved, or are looking to move on from such displays, especially having now spent enough time with one and understanding how the technology behaves first hand. In fact I'd go as far as to carries a lot of the best that CRT and Plasma offered, but ultimately with familiar limitations too. Plasma died as it simply hit the limits of what the technology could offer, and again if OLED can't some day hit high levels of peak brightness then it too will likely fade away in the next few years.

 

I'm very excited to soon be able to watch the UHD Blu-rays I've slowly been collecting. I really don't want to comment on OLED's HDR performance until I can sit and watch the highest quality content avilable to me. It's impressing me with games, but HDR in games is not dependent on any standards so it's difficult to evaluate.

 

I remain sad not being able to have gone to 65." I wanted that greater sense of immersion, but I generally underestimated the different sense of immersion OLED delivers in its own unique way. Colour against absolute black has always wowed me on these sets, but as I wrote the other day it's also those blacks that draw your focus effortlessly to the image, and it is especially obvious watching 4:3 and wider than 16:9 content as the black bars just direct your attention on the used image area and your eye and brain kind of disregards the borders (and, again, you absolutely do not need to be in a bat cave environment to notice this effect). It's such a pleasurable experience and so easy going on the eye that, as Romier and I have theorised for months, it is perhaps a more than acceptable trade off vs other TVs that can get much brighter and extract more out of HDR content.

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I suspect that if the mainstream (and let's be honest, neither the OLED sets nor that Z9 you backed down from are mainstream) is going to get any major step closer to the contrast levels that make HDR really work, it will be Panasonic's double-layer concept. Should be able to give the deep black levels even with edge lighting as I understand it.

 

Of course, I fully expect it to be cripplingly expensive at first, but longer-term, I think it's more likely to come down than OLED or zone-based backlighting with lots of zones.

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So I poked my head in here a while ago, having been gone for a while (after seeing Romier post on neogaf about the OLED firmware update). 

 

I did indeed get myself one of these. I winced at the extra $1k for the 65".  Ended up with the 65" E6 for $2799 via ielectronica / ebay.

 

Somehow I knew you guys would be talking OLED settings.

 

Still fiddling with the trumotion settings.  Been watching Planet Earth II with the kids and the judder / blur issue was bugging me.   My torture test for it right now is the Mountains episode, towards the beginning with the hawk diving through the mountains.  Too much dejudder / deblur and the hawk was  artifacting - disappearing / reappearing in the mountain.

 

Haven't calibrated it much yet otherwise - my oldest keeps bugging me to watch movies and my XBL buddies keep bugging me to play Overwatch, hard to find extra time to tweak it.

 

Trying to figure out a good way to quickly toggle to and from game mode easily.  It's nice the set saves settings for individual modes, so my HDR UHD BD settings aren't being used on games, but that doesn't apply to normal 1080p BDs.

 

Tried to get the Onkyo 646's HDMI2 to output to a separate HDMI port on the TV but it isn't playing nice for that (HDMI sub output seems to be a duplicate of HDMI main).  That would be a workaround but no luck yet getting both outputs to go to the LG.

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Still fiddling with the trumotion settings.  Been watching Planet Earth II with the kids and the judder / blur issue was bugging me.   My torture test for it right now is the Mountains episode, towards the beginning with the hawk diving through the mountains.  Too much dejudder / deblur and the hawk was  artifacting - disappearing / reappearing in the mountain.

 

I would honestly not touch dejudder, at least on film based content where it is proven to be broken.

 

Planet Earth II is an interesting one as the BBC opted to make the UHD disc 24p, which is not actually the native framerate of the series. Even the UK disc is 24p. The conversion has apparently had no detrimental effect on the presentation, but it is quite possible that there may be the odd shot here and there where there are some motion issues inherently in the source due to the decision (it's been altered from 25fps). I'm still waiting to get a player so have not seen the disc for myself yet.

 

Calibration wise, I'd recommend the AVSHD disc of test signals which are available for free here.  There's also Ted's calibration disc for a small fee from here which I also use and can be found here (I'll be using this one at the weekend, but it's a bit more complicated than the AVSHD disc. You can get the basics done with both however). Either use a meter and a 100% white window to measure a target brightness of 35ftl, or alternatively set OLED Light to your preferred brightness by eye. Then use pluge patterns from AVSHD or Ted to set brightness and contrast. Contrast is one of the few settings that seems to behave similarly from set to set with the LG OLEDs and so you're pretty likely to end up leaving the slider between 80 and 85. Contrast behaves more like CRT on OLEDs so the way you might be used to calibrating the setting on other TVs kind of goes out the window here. The pluge signal will still ensure you don't go too high and clip anything, so set it as high as it can go before that happens. Sharpness can go to 0 and Colour/Tint can typically be left alone on every set too. 

 

The brightness toggle is a lot tougher. No two sets are really the same here, although 50 does seem to be a safe space to start. As with other TVs you'll still want to bring up a pluge pattern and try to ensure the bars 17 and upwards are visible. You may find this difficult as the LG sets do inherently crush blacks, so don't worry if it's hard to see 17 when calibrating it by eye. I'd leave it until it is just visible or else you'll start to see a lot of ugly anomalies (really only fixable with some sweat and tears, or just hiring a pro). There seems to be a variance of people ending up between 50 and 53.

 

I'm still researching and experimenting nightly with the best way to approach greyscale calibration. If this is something you want to try you can use the open source software HCFR from here but you'll need a meter, the i1display Pro being the most ideal consumer option (buy anything more expensive and you might as well bring in a pro who's going to have a 1000$+ Klein meter in their bag. In all honesty I would just hire a pro off the bat as I think these sets deserve it. I just enjoy trying things myself initially to understand how the technology behaves and already own the i1 pro meter for work anyway. You'll also need a tripod, and I'm lucky enough to have one where the neck and be brought down into a horizontal position). You'd use the AVSHD or Ted's disc with HCFR and use the 21pt greyscale test signals that will help you measure 0 to 100 IRE, and it still seems best to use the TVs 2pt white balance first then tweaking via the 20pt controls. The luminance controls under the 20pt white balance are broken however and should not be touched, so a different approach is needed for gamma targets (this is what I am next having to teach myself). Also LG's entire colour management system is broken and should be left alone, but thankfully LG's OLED panels are all very colour accurate out of the box with a warm2 setting and colour gamut set to normal. 

 

I feel as though I have read the equivalent of War and Peace three times over with the amount of discussion I've read about these sets and calibrating them this past week (there's currently eleven related tabs linking to AVS and AV forums posts open in my browses), and I'm only just now beginning to understand their behaviour a little better. 

 

You can purchase an iso to burn to a disc containing HDR test signals here which I will do once I have rec709 calibration done and have my UHD player.

 

I haven't yet researched how best to approach game mode calibration and HDR game mode especially. That's definitely something I want to do, though I believe controls are limited under game modes. 

 

 

That's the one, yes. Seems only a year or two out, and doesn't use much in the way of unique tech, just a clever adaptation of existing tools.

All the rumblings I've read seemed to suggest it is more cost prohibitive than people might think, and that Panasonic are only looking to develop it for the science and medical industries. Hopefully that isn't the case, though with Panasonic's global presence diminishing (they don't even sell TVs in the US anymore) I'm not sure about its future. It would be great if it does reach consumers though. Again I do think it is more logical to expect breakthroughs with LCD than OLED in the years to come (it's perhaps especially true since LG are all alone in making OLED panels so R&D and competition is limited).

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Thanks.  I'll try some of your suggestions.  Not sure I'm going to go full calibration route but I don't mind spending some spare time trying to tweak things a bit to get them closer. 

 

Good tip on the Planet Earth 2, I didn't realize that they fiddled with the framerate, might explain why I'm having trouble shaking some motion artifacts from it.  I've always been pretty sensitive to them, find them very distracting.

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I may actually have to return my set.

 

I got my grayscale and gamma calibration down perfectly tonight, outside of some red push which can easily be removed with a little more tweaking, however the posterisation issue I noticed on one film the other night and thought I'd be able to fix with carful adjustment reared its head again and prompted me to test several other discs. The 2012 film adaptation of the Les Miserables musical is a good torture test for dark scenes, and my E6 just went to pieces trying to handle it this evening. Atrocious gradient errors and posterisation. I can put on a disc like Samsara and my calibration makes the display sing with that kind of content, but cycling through some more challenging material is revealing more and more issues. The sad part is brighter scenes in Les Mis are a feast for the eyes on my set, particularly the vivid blues and reds in some of the costumes. So, irony of ironies my OLED set is clearly struggling with dark scenes! This isn't the near black dithering anomalies the LG sets inherently suffer from (at least I hope it isn't, because these sets are unfit to leave the factory if that's the case). 

 

I've been through every gamma option, and even reset to out of box settings just to rule out an error on my part during calibration. I need to see if there's a way to do a hard reboot of the entire TV on the off chance the processor has developed an error that might be rectified by re-flashing it completely, but outside of that I am all out of ideas. 

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Tried a hard reboot (you unplug the TV then hold power on the remote) but it made no difference. During the day, since the eye balances ambient light in the room with the image on screen visible shadow detail is inherently lowered so the problem is less obvious, and that's probably what threw me the other day when I thought I have diminished the error. It's not as if I view the TV in complete darkness at night though. Some ambient light gets into the room in the evenings as I have no blind on the window, and there's the bias light behind the TV, but dark scenes in films just look appalling right now.

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I'm narrowing it down a little. It's beige and brown tones in the shadows that these TVs seem to have a particular problem with rather than simply dark areas themselves. I skimmed through Alien for example, which doesn't really have those kind of tones in the shadows in its palette and it looked fine. I'm going to have to keep investigating and think of other discs I could use for reference. Band of Brothers is perhaps something I will pull off the shelf. 

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OK, talking to myself here I know but I THINK I'm close to solving my posterisation error, or at the very least diminishing it to the point where it is not longer distracting. It's involving having to do something I would not traditionally do, and that is making adjustments by eye. I think I have been too slavish to HCFR and my i1 Display Pro meter at the low end, particularly since the low end is where the i1 will struggle the most compared to the kind of meter a pro is going to have in their bag. So it means having to nudge the luminance values by eye. The tricky thing here is, as I think I mentioned before, the luminance controls under 20pt white balance introduce image anomalies of their own, so what you have to do is nudge RGB at each point in the white balance (5%, 10%, 20%...etc) to hit your gamma targets. Since my troubles are at the low end I am therefore having to adjust RGB values for 5 and 10% IRE values by eye. 

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God damn these TVs are fascinating bastards to calibrate. 

 

I'm effectively cycling through every popular method at this point to see which responds most consistently to a variety of content. I've yet to try Chad Bs approach of raising absolute black level a touch at the low end (you basically set the calibration software you're using to an artificial black level of around .0034cd/m2 and from there create a sliding power gamma curve). I'll probably get round to that at some stage. I may also configure the Cinema preset to allow me to switch between calibration styles on the fly easily for better evaluation. Over the weekend I did manage to get 2.2 daytime to a decent place where Frank and Les Mis no longer showed up the shortcomings of the TV, but there's still room for tweaking and a lot more work and rouble shooting to be done on a night time setting targeting 2.4. 

 

One thing I am having to get used to is having a TV that has its own light control. It's common LCD owners, obviously, but coming from plasma it's a new control to get used to in trying to balance it with the contrast slider to target the peak luminance I want (and I'm still undecided on what I'd prefer).

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