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The Official Television and Display Technology Thread - Enter of your own will.....(and leave with a lighter wallet)


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Aaand TV panel has been swapped.

So...l finally ended up making a decision on the TV. (Not really having much of a choice after the plasma started having screen issues).   I have decided to upgrade as much as possible. Star

Stop using the god damn out of box settings.... says Tom Cruise!    

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9 hours ago, foogledricks said:

 

 

At this point I'd pay $87K if it solved all of my problems. Not talking about Joel's micro penis.

 

This whole HDMI 2.1 thing is a pain in the ass. I had trouble finding cables longer than 6 ft. I can't find wall plates that support 2.1.  It is hard finding receivers that support 7.1.2 Atmos AND HDMI 2.1. And the TV selection is a shit show.

 

Even the god damn wall mounts for the TVs aren't available for the size (85 inch) that I want. Available for all except 85 inch. I know there are kids starving in Ethiopia but there has to be some non-profit humanitarian organization that can solve all my next-gen woes.

HDMI 2.1 is a god damn mess. You’d think with LG being on their second Gen of TVs supporting it and all the new consoles supporting it there would be more but nope. 

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Anyone here using a QLED Samsung display or have experience with them? A friend recently bought one and we did a calibration pass on it for him - honestly it looks great on 99% of the content we’ve thrown at it but, for some reason 4K content with film grain seem to create a lot of visual noise. I say a lot but, it just seems like more noise than should be there. I checked smoky scenes and anything else I could think of in other 4K content like 1917 and Blade Runner 2049 and they look gorgeous with no noise; it’s really just noticeable with film grain on stuff like the original Blade Runner and typically in darker scenes. This is the Q85 series (UK version) - curious if this is expected with QLED or an Engineer menu setting I missed or something. 

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Film grain is, essentially, noise, but bear in mind two things:

 

1) Blade Runner isn’t a great test - the grain structure looks more artificial than a lot of titles, to my eyes. 

 

2) if you’ve got any sharpness left on (and you may well need to set this separately for anything with DV) then grain drives it mad. 

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Thanks guys.
 

@iainl You’re right and the original BR is not a great example since the grain does look almost “enhanced”. He doesn’t own many 4K titles yet but, I think he has Unforgiven so we might try that next. Going from memory but, I think that had a nice, natural film grain to it without too much smoothing?

 

@NickC Could you take a look at 1917 (assuming you have it) and the abandoned underground bunker scene please? Specifically right after the tripwire explosion goes off and there is a ton of dust in the air. I think this scene has a lot of fine dust in the image and digital grain added in post? But, the dust in the air backlit by the light still looks clear and correctly colored on my display with no discernible noise to it. On his Q85 this particular scene almost looks like the dust has green/red sparks in it. Maybe this is a bad scene to judge by? Or maybe the “noise” has more to do with HDR? 
 

I’ll have to recheck the Input Signal Plus setting again too for that HDMI as each time I go into the Engineer menu on it it seems to reset all of the settings on the standard menu so maybe that got turned off?

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It could be the way the display is handling the image processing and/or the way it tone maps HDR, yes. Almost sounds like a chroma error somewhere in the chain though if there's a a hint of red/green in the anomalies you're seeing. 

 

HDR in general does not tend to be kind to grain and digital noise if there isn't careful oversight by those doing the mastering. A lot of Sony titles for example really seem to be left to blast the HDR with no real thought about the way it might be artificially exaggerating the grain making a lot of their film sourced titles look grainier than they probably should. I can even remember the producers on Westworld (shot on film) talking about how many problems HDR was causing with the grain structure on the show (which I think is what lead them to scanning and finishing seasons in 2k instead). 

 

1917 was shot digitally, so any noise there will be just that, digital noise. I'm not sure if they added any artificial grain in during post. Also Roger Deakins hates HDR, so there really isn't much in the way of it with any of his films on disc anyway, so HDR may not be the issue with that disc unless Universal goofed with the metadata on the disc and it's triggering an issue with the Samsung. Again, colour noise makes me think of some kind of chroma issue though. What player was being used? Did you try a different HDMI cable?

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Thanks Dan.

 

We did use 2 different HDMI leads to test with but, got the same results with both. I checked the leads for the other devices in the chain but, he uses the Hue Sync box and I can’t remember on that one so I’ll look again. As far as playback he has a Samsung player that he got with the TV from Currys but, I don’t know the model offhand. The playback noise was bugging me so I went back over and loaded my UHD rip (full rip, remux, no added compression, only extra audio removed) and played the file via the built in player with a connected USB drive but, there is the same noise in that scene. I tried again through his AppleTV using his own Plex server (copied the file into his library) and made sure to check the standard stuff like Plex on ATV using DirectPlay/Direct Stream, etc but, all of these methods still show the same noise in that scene.
 

Maybe I’ve missed something or maybe a setting is getting tripped when I go back into the Engineer menu and is messing it up? Or maybe I’m overly sensitive to it and it’s in the encode itself and I just can’t see it on mine since it’s an older HDR set now? The thing is it looks SO good for the whole rest of the film and in almost everything else we’ve tried. BR2049 looks as good on his QLED as I’ve ever seen it. 

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Ok I re-ran the test with my friend on his QLED tonight at the same point in 1917 with some adjustments to the settings, tried another new cable and tried bypassing the Hue Sync and no change to the fine detail in the dust. I went back through every setting on the display too but, everything is good; nothing missed. I think this is as good as it will look and my guess is that the off-color particles mixed in with the fine dust in that scene must be an artifact of the HDR encoding. I’m not seeing it on mine but, I think that’s because my HDR set is older and I think this is an HDR effect. My display maxes out HDR brightness at about 650 (his hits just over 1000). I think for 1917 the HDR encoding “enhances” the dust particles and artificial grain in that particular scene making some of the dust stand out more and triggering colors that weren’t there from what I remember in the cinema.
 

The rest of the film is really amazing looking on his display and everything else we’ve thrown at it has been flawless. We tested 4K sports, Amazon and Netflix 4K streams (fine for what they are), Star Wars Last Jedi and re-ran the BR2049 scenes and they are all flawless. We also tried Unforgiven tonight and it looked great too; certainly softer than the newer releases but, more film like with a natural grain. 

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7 hours ago, Magness said:

I’m not seeing it on mine but, I think that’s because my HDR set is older and I think this is an HDR effect. My display maxes out HDR brightness at about 650 (his hits just over 1000). I think for 1917 the HDR encoding “enhances” the dust particles and artificial grain in that particular scene making some of the dust stand out more and triggering colors that weren’t there from what I remember in the cinema.

 

I'm really not convinced about it being the HDR. The film likely doesn't even exceed 200nits because, again, Roger Deakins hates HDR and doesn't master his films for anything that exceeds SDR, so the higher nit LED display isn't going to be getting anything extra out of the image or its metadata with discs like 1917, Sicario, Skyfall and Blade Runner 2049. It really seems like a chroma bug to me either in the player or the display somewhere, but then you'd think it would surface with other demos.

 

 

 

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Did some digging and 1917's MaxFALL (Maximum Frame Average Light Level) is 168 nits.

 

One thought occurred to me. Are you both evaluating the same version of the disc? By which I mean do you both have UK copies? The UK disc is from eOne, while the US is from Universal. The source assets will be identical, but the encoding may differ between territories. I actually imported the US disc as I wanted the original burnt in font during the French language scenes (they're player generated on the UK release) so they definitely differ in some respects.

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More digging. I found the playlist info reports for the US and UK versions:

 

US
Name: 00040.MPLS  
Length: 1:58:59.465 (h:m:s.ms)
Size: 79,140,501,504 bytes
Total Bitrate: 88.68 Mbps

(*) Indicates included stream hidden by this playlist.

VIDEO:

Codec Bitrate Description  
----- ------- -----------  
MPEG-H HEVC Video 70109 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / 1000nits / HDR10+ v1 Profile B / BT.2020
* MPEG-H HEVC Video 7272 kbps (9.40%) 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / 1000nits / Dolby Vision FEL / BT.2020

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description  
----- -------- ------- -----------  
Dolby TrueHD/Atmos Audio English 4258 kbps 7.1-Atmos / 48 kHz / 3810 kbps / 24-bit (AC3 Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps)
Dolby Digital Plus Audio Spanish 768 kbps 7.1 / 48 kHz / 768 kbps (AC3 Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps ( Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps))
Dolby Digital Plus Audio French 768 kbps 7.1 / 48 kHz / 768 kbps (AC3 Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps ( Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps))
Dolby Digital Audio English 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio English 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps

SUBTITLES:

Codec Language Bitrate Description  
----- -------- ------- -----------  
Presentation Graphics English 24.866 kbps  
Presentation Graphics Spanish 21.089 kbps  
Presentation Graphics French 22.453 kbps  
Presentation Graphics Spanish 0.986 kbps  
Presentation Graphics French 1.106 kbps


UK
Name: 00801.MPLS
Length: 1:58:59.465 (h:m:s.ms)
Size: 77,653,008,384 bytes
Total Bitrate: 87.01 Mbps

(*) Indicates included stream hidden by this playlist.

VIDEO:

Codec Bitrate Description  
----- ------- -----------  
MPEG-H HEVC Video 69545 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / HDR10 / BT.2020
* MPEG-H HEVC Video 6831 kbps 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 10 bits / Dolby Vision / BT.2020

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description  
----- -------- ------- -----------  
Dolby TrueHD/Atmos Audio English 4258 kbps 7.1 / 48 kHz / 3810 kbps / 24-bit (AC3 Embedded: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps / DN -27dB)
Dolby Digital Plus Audio Spanish 768 kbps 7.1 / 48 kHz / 768 kbps / DN -27dB (AC3 Embedded: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps / DN -27dB)
Dolby Digital Audio English 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -27dB
Dolby Digital Audio English 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -27dB

SUBTITLES:

Codec Language Bitrate Description  
----- -------- ------- -----------  
Presentation Graphics English 25.259 kbps  
Presentation Graphics Spanish 21.226 kbps  
Presentation Graphics English 66.425 kbps  
Presentation Graphics Spanish 62.421 kbps  
Presentation Graphics English 63.591 kbps  
Presentation Graphics Spanish 58.015 kbps  
Presentation Graphics English 0.086 kbps  
Presentation Graphics Spanish 1.054 kbps

 

 

The '1000 nits' reference is the MaxCLL of the disc. Doesn't relate to the actual peak nit level of the film itself (which, again, is 168nits). Video bitrates shows both the UK and US versions are indeed encoded differently though, so maybe there's a chroma error in the UK disc? 🤷‍♂️ 

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Thanks for looking that up Dan. And no actually, they would be different versions; I wasn’t aware of any differences between them (don’t remember if I ever looked it up before I bought it). My version is the US disc (rip) whereas his is the UK UHD so they may have some variation there. We played the same rip though and when played on my set it does not have any green tinted dust in that scene - and it does on his. But, as I said it’s literally the only thing that’s ever not looked quite right. Everything else looks so good on the QLED that it kinda makes this one scene stand out (for the wrong reasons). It’s the only scene I’ve found to show behavior like this and it’s not the highest bitrate disc/rip or anything so, if it’s not due to mishandling of the HDR levels maybe it’s the dimming zones? They are set to High for film content (without subs) and maybe they are lighting the dust particles unevenly on the edges between zones?

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I seem to recall HDTVTest remarking that Samsung bake something into their processing that makes it impossible for calibrators to work around to achieve absolute accuracy. My memory is hazy, but I do seem to recall the remarks being related to the way Samsung handle colour and the way they seem to artificially boost it slightly. I wonder if that's what is causing some conflict.

 

I was trying to think of another similar film to try and test (featuring scenes with dust and debris), and I thought of Private Ryan but then I remember that disc actually does have some chroma weirdness going on in the source so wouldn't be a good demo to try. 

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Yea, it may be fighting against me to some degree :) I’m back over at his tonight so will report back after I test some more but, I think I’m going to leave it alone after this. He is thrilled with it and everything else we’ve played on it has looked excellent. I don’t want to keep tinkering with it for my own benefit to the point that it starts bothering him. It also occurs to me that it might simply be the the crosshatch pixel arrangement of the panel. I wouldn’t say you can normally detect the pattern from the seating position (about 7ft out) but, that combined with the aggressive dimming zones and a scene with fine detail in the dust like this could be triggering the green sub pixels.

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So I tested on the QLED again last night - this time focusing on changes to the dimming zones and brightness. If I turn the dimming settings to low and adjust the brightness down (back to flat -0 and then at -5) the green “effect” in the dust in the 1917 scene is reduced but, not completely gone - but, the image itself is not good at those settings. There is a big drop in detail to the rest of the image with the light from the lamp and the daylight as they come out of the bunker having a noticeably grey cast to it with the lowered settings. Also, titles with subs were worse at the lowered settings with noticeable blocking around the subs. Restoring the settings back to High on dimming zones and 32 (+5) on brightness the image looks great again with much more accurate coloring and light uniformity but, the green particles are back in the dust of course. 
 

I tried looking at some other scenes with fine dust and particles in them to see if I could replicate it but, I haven’t found anything similar. This scene is pretty unique I guess as this backlit with a single light source in-camera with the digital grain added on top but, the detail looks like you could almost pick out the individual dust particles. So, this seems pretty unique to 1917 and this scene I guess as nothing else I could find duplicated the look of it or the green effect. 
 

Anyway, I’m done calibrating his set. He loves it and it really looks flawless on everything else we’ve demo’d on it; I’m just being picky at this point. As Dan pointed out it could entirely be something in the Samsung auto settings countering the calibration, something in the encode differences between the UK/US, something else in the playback device chain or otherwise unrelated to the display and/or content itself. It’s not anything major so I can let this go - and I don’t have anything negative to say about Samsung or QLED - it looks fantastic. It was just weird behavior in this one scene that stood out to me so thanks to all of you for the help

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2 hours ago, Magness said:

The 1917 scene starts at 27:45 as the tripwire goes off. Thanks Nick

 

Thanks, unfortunately I think my UBD-K8500 may have died, I had it fired up and ready to go, but I couldn't find the remote, after eating and searching for the remote  (which I didn't find) I can no longer get a picture to output 🤷‍♂️

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