Jump to content
LCVG
Romier S

The Last of Us II - 2 Discs, Releasing June 19th, 2020

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, OldDarth said:

ACG's take.

 

 

 

Plenty of fair criticism in there. I disagree with a lot of his issues (the game never felt like a slog to me, the ally AI is hugely improved over the original, etc.) but again, totally fair viewpoint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who watched play-throughs of this like a movie, you may resent me for having an opinion on the story, and you may be right to do so, but I did have a deep affection for the characters of the first, so I feel like I deserved to see this one through, even though I'm mostly retired from gaming now.  (I play COD warzone into the wee hours of the night, but it's more an excuse to hang out with my buddies and drink and laugh than anything else).


 

Spoiler

 

I can see why Abby became a sympathetic character over the course of her playtime.  I mean, they cleverly manipulated the player/viewer with cheap but effective tactics, such as having her play with a dog twice, not have to kill a dog (did you have a choice, as Ellie to not kill at least one dog?), rescue a trapped animal, and pledge that she would have altruistically sacrificed herself for the cure if she were in Ellie's shoes.   That last one is pretty important, but that that's easy to say for just about any of us, I think.  More important, and left out of her flashback, was for her father to say whether he would have been able to sacrifice his daughter, and THAT is the crux of this whole revenge tale.  Because that's the choice Joel made on behalf of Ellie.  I'd wager no father could have made the cut to his own daughter, no matter what the possible implications to mankind were. 

 

Joel made the morally correct choice.  You can't get good from doing evil, at least not from a moral, ethical standpoint.  You would kill baby Hitler to save the world from his atrocities, but you would be killing a baby.  Not an easy task when the blade meets neck.

 

Abby had enough time to have all her epiphanies, having been shown mercy from the Scars, risking her own life to save one of them, and then seeing the carnage of her murdered friends.  Yet when her blade met Dina's throat,  she was STILL about to draw the knife, even saying "good" when told Dina was pregnant, only to be stopped by Lev at the last possible second.  What if he hadn't been there?

 

She was redeemed somewhat by her suffering (on the cross, as it were), and I knew she meant it when she said she didn't want to fight Ellie anymore.  That was about the only time I felt the least bit of sympathy for her.   If she's not captured, tortured and enslaved, does she willfully fight and murder Ellie, to finally bring and end to all the bloodshed.  I think so. 

 

I don't know, maybe the story could have been better with everything being nearly the same, except have the surgeon's have another child.  Have Abby kidnap Joel and deliver Joel to that person for revenge, and make it a rescue mission for Ellie. It sure would have made a lot more sense.  Now Abby doesn't have to be the character that inexplicably took pleasure in, and prolonged for time, the murder of Joel, but yet showed mercy to Ellie (twice!) and Tommy.    The player would have had a greater sense of urgency, and it would still leave room for some heroism from Ellie, rather than reduce her motive solely to vengeance.  You can still have the big-bad murder Joel at then end if you want, but that could have been been yet another epiphany for Abby. 

 

Otherwise, this whole sordid, morbid journey is undertaken to teach us a lesson we should have already learned from a fortune cookie: "When planning revenge, first dig two graves."

 

 

 

Carlos. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For anyone who’s finished the game, help me interpret this possible symbolism:

 

Spoiler

I’m fully aware I may be reading too much into it, but it stood out to me, so food for thought if anything.

 

I was able to avoid all spoilers of this game before finishing it, but in doing that, I was still aware there was possibly a controversial element to the game or its story, but I really didn’t know what it was. Something had been said to me that made me wonder if it was religious in nature.

 

I’d mentioned this to Erica who I was showing some gameplay to one day when she came over. Watching the footage, the one thing she pointed out was how this display in the jewelry store looks like the three crosses.:

 

The Last of Us™ Part II_20200629114057.jpg

 

I was like

Jack Nicholson Reaction GIF

 

 

Right after that, I started noticing them:

 

Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 10.13.34 AM.jpg

 

The Last of Us™ Part II_20200624002916.jpg

 

 

 

And then obviously the scene at the end at the “pillars”.

Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 11.49.09 AM.jpg

 

Wondering now how many I missed.

 

I haven't seen this posted anywhere so not sure if this is a layer of subtext running throughout. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really, now you want to drag RELIGION into THIS thread?

 

LOL.  ;)

 

I'll give you some thoughts after lunch.  

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Fire 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Carlucci said:

As someone who watched play-throughs of this like a movie, you may resent me for having an opinion on the story, and you may be right to do so, but I did have a deep affection for the characters of the first, so I feel like I deserved to see this one through, even though I'm mostly retired from gaming now.  (I play COD warzone into the wee hours of the night, but it's more an excuse to hang out with my buddies and drink and laugh than anything else).


 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Carlos. 

 

No resentment. I was wondering why you weren't /playing/ the actual game but it makes sense now. What's up with the retirement? Just nothing appeals anymore?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Starhawk I am mostly immune to symbolism.  You show me a jewelry stand, I see a jewelry stand.  The last one you had was the most obvious, and I did notice those because how could you not make that parallel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

@Starhawk I am mostly immune to symbolism.  You show me a jewelry stand, I see a jewelry stand.  The last one you had was the most obvious, and I did notice those because how could you not make that parallel.

 

I'm not generally immune to it but in this case, I'm with you. I didn't notice the any parallels until the finale (which was hard not to notice). Other than that, the jewelry stand was a jewelry stand to me. 


Perhaps all of the symbolism boils down to...

 

8c7444475c9f632ea75098a3e3ec81d2.jpg

 

 

maybe not, just a theory;).

  • Fire 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

@Starhawk I am mostly immune to symbolism.  You show me a jewelry stand, I see a jewelry stand.  The last one you had was the most obvious, and I did notice those because how could you not make that parallel.

 

And here I am now googling jewelry stands :andre: It seems like a common version of that style is called a Trigem and usually has the hangers layered on top of each other rather than split apart to the sides. In most of the pictures, it's actually a "T" formation rather than a cross. Makes me wonder *why* the one in the screenshot of placed and designed like it is. 

 

Also, the first three screen caps I posted happened really close to each other where it felt blatant once I noticed it and seemed more than just a coincidence. Especially the huge one in the background of the third pic. I felt like I kept seeing them, but then I don't remember seeing any until the last screenshot. 

 

But I've not clue how it relates to the story so maybe it's nothing. Maybe Carlos can help 😄

 

That being said

Spoiler

..who are the people the Rattlers are imprisoning at the end of the game? Everybody that's not them? Do we get a sense of what their motivation is from any of the letters? The people "crucified" at the end are the ones that escaped?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the

 

Rattlers are picking up random people for forced labor/slavery.  They also capture infected to use as guard dogs. Pretty much anyone that gets out of line ends up on the pillars or they get intentionally infected and chained up for amusement.

 

There are various notes from folks who basically would rather die than end up back with them or they just outright commit suicide if they have escaped. They represent probably the most black and white villain in the game, frankly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Starhawk said:

 

And here I am now googling jewelry stands :andre: It seems like a common version of that style is called a Trigem and usually has the hangers layered on top of each other rather than split apart to the sides. In most of the pictures, it's actually a "T" formation rather than a cross. Makes me wonder *why* the one in the screenshot of placed and designed like it is. 

 

Also, the first three screen caps I posted happened really close to each other where it felt blatant once I noticed it and seemed more than just a coincidence. Especially the huge one in the background of the third pic. I felt like I kept seeing them, but then I don't remember seeing any until the last screenshot. 

 

But I've not clue how it relates to the story so maybe it's nothing. Maybe Carlos can help 😄

 

That being said

  Hide contents

..who are the people the Rattlers are imprisoning at the end of the game? Everybody that's not them? Do we get a sense of what their motivation is from any of the letters? The people "crucified" at the end are the ones that escaped?

 

 

Well, the third one is at a Hospital, if I'm correct.  So I would have expected there to be a cross there.  Now it's framed prominently in the scene so it may have some greater importance to the developers.  But that's the only one that has a legitimate purpose.

 

1 minute ago, Romier S said:

I think the

  Hide contents

Rattlers are picking up random people for forced labor/slavery.  The also capture infected to use as guard dogs. Pretty much anyone that gets out of line ends up on the pillars.

 

 

This was exactly my thinking as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

 

Well, the third one is at a Hospital, if I'm correct.  So I wouldn't have expected there to not be a cross there.  Now it's framed prominently in the scene so it may have some greater importance to the developers.  

 

 

I thought it was a girder for a building or bridge. I see what you are saying about the hospital, but it'd be  and not ✝️.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Starhawk said:

 

I thought it was a girder for a building or bridge. I see what you are saying about the hospital, but it'd be  and not ✝️.

 

Depends on the hospital I suppose.  Some in our area do have religious affiliations, not as many as there used to be, but some.  In the game it is St. Mary's Hospital. It's probably a personal association for me.  But it does exist.

 

edit:  My bad St Mary's was game 2.  I can't find the Firefly hospital name.

 

edit2:  I guess it is St. Mary's.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A quick attempt at answering Starhawks' questions above....

 

Spoiler

 

John 3:16 - Remember the clown-haired dudes that used to hold up signs at major sporting events?  The hope, I guess, was that viewers would be curious enough to crack a Bible, and read that passage.  It's THE central premise of Christianity -- God sacrificed his only begotten son to redeem the sins of humankind.    Sound familiar? 

 

Is Ellie Jesus?  She probably would have acted Christ-like, if given the choice.  She may very well have laid down her life, to save humanity from the scourge that we brought upon ourselves (do they ever show the cause of the outbreak, like global warming or some shit?). 

 

Jesus was conceived and lived his entire life without sin.  Ellie, to the point of Joel's choice, had probably come pretty close, at least from what we were given in her story.  Sure, she killed, but killing in self-defense, or to save the life of another, is not intrinsically immoral. She is certainly the most pure of all the characters we are shown.  And like the virgin Mary, she was immaculately conceived, free of the stain of sin (immunity to the spores) that the entire human race inherits from their fore-bearers. Indeed central to Catholicism is the concept of that Jesus' flesh and blood  becomes the source of spiritual nourishment, as Ellie's brain stem would have become the key to a vaccine, where everyone must partake of her flesh (genetics) to have a chance at life. 

 

But Joel, God-like to Ellie, and even a bit to us (are we ever shown a major sinful quality in Joel?), is not THE God, and therefore could not let his love for his child (Ellie's not his blood, but there is no room to doubt he loved her like his own) be overcome by an altruistic choice that was not his to make. 

 

Think about what the cross was meant to symbolize.  We've had 2000 years to become jaded and desensitized to it, but the cross was THE method by which someone was murdered for major crimes. It's the apparatus onto which a human being was nailed and left to die.  It was chosen precisely because it was so shocking and jarring -- the very symbol of the viciousness that man was capable of -- that someone could not help but take notice of it.  And over the course of centuries it has instead become the symbol of divine mercy and love.

 

It's no wonder there are crosses in the game.  Subtle reminders that the developers are aware of the biblical analogies in the game. 

 

The cross in the background of the Joel and Ellie scene is most definitely deliberate.  Is that the scene where he finds her after she ran off?  If so, here he is the shepherd coming for his lost lamb, and it's the scene where we're about to hear his confession that he could not (due to love, not weakness) sacrifice his child as God did with Jesus.

 

The final scene with Abby on a pole being crucified is definitely deliberate too.   When Jesus was on the cross, a thief was being killed next to him.  He is penitent before Jesus, and Jesus promises him right then and there that he will be in Heaven that night.  That passage says that it's never too late to be redeemed.  Abby gets her redemption too.  Ellie saves her.  And Abby has no more fight in her, except when forced to save the life another, when this time Ellie has the blade to Lev's throat.  I would rather have had Abby say "you're going to have to kill us both then, but I won't fight you.", and make Ellie come to her final moment of acceptance, compassion, and grace without having first had to have such a brutal, unfair fight against an obviously weakened opponent.  This is immaturity and the need for one last fight sequence coming forth from the developers, rather than the telling a good morality tale.  It would have been a perfect role reversal, given Abby another real moment of self-sacrifice, and made the ending even more tragic when an at-peace, instead of just broken,  Ellie returns to find Dina gone. 

 

So maybe the game is answering the question, what if God had changed his mind, and let man fall further into sin, rather than letting Christ die in our place.  But do I think they are really going for some sort of spiritual, Christian message in this game?  No, almost certainly not.  More likely they are like Jules in "Pulp Fiction" who quoted a bible verse (that's really nowhere to be found in the actual Bible) just because he thought it was something badass to say before he busts a cap in someone's ass. 

 

They probably just thought a few crosses made sense in a game about moral failings and moral good, altruistic and selfish motives, and the secular world's ever blurring line between good and evil.

 

 

 

 

Carlos.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Cheers 1
  • Bravo 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Carlucci said:

A quick attempt at answering Starhawks' questions above....

 

  Hide contents

 

John 3:16 - Remember the clown-haired dudes that used to hold up signs at major sporting events?  The hope, I guess, was that viewers would be curious enough to crack a Bible, and read that passage.  It's THE central premise of Christianity -- God sacrificed his only begotten son to redeem the sins of humankind.    Sound familiar? 

 

Is Ellie Jesus?  She probably would have acted Christ-like, if given the choice.  She may very well have laid down her life, to save humanity from the scourge that we brought upon ourselves (do they ever show the cause of the outbreak, like global warming or some shit?). 

 

Jesus was conceived and lived his entire life without sin.  Ellie, to the point of Joel's choice, had probably come pretty close, at least from what we were given in her story.  Sure, she killed, but killing in self-defense, or to save the life of another, is not intrinsically immoral. She is certainly the most pure of all the characters we are shown.  And like the virgin Mary, she was immaculately conceived, free of the stain of sin (immunity to the spores) that the entire human race inherits from their fore-bearers. Indeed central to Catholicism is the concept of that Jesus' flesh and blood  becomes the source of spiritual nourishment, as Ellie's brain stem would have become the key to a vaccine, where everyone must partake of her flesh (genetics) to have a chance at life. 

 

But Joel, God-like to Ellie, and even a bit to us (are we ever shown a major sinful quality in Joel?), is not THE God, and therefore could not let his love for his child (Ellie's not his blood, but there is no room to doubt he loved her like his own) be overcome by an altruistic choice that was not his to make. 

 

Think about what the cross was meant to symbolize.  We've had 2000 years to become jaded and desensitized to it, but the cross was THE method by which someone was murdered for major crimes. It's the apparatus onto which a human being was nailed and left to die.  It was chosen precisely because it was so shocking and jarring -- the very symbol of the viciousness that man was capable of -- that someone could not help but take notice of it.  And over the course of centuries it has instead become the symbol of divine mercy and love.

 

It's no wonder there are crosses in the game.  Subtle reminders that the developers are aware of the biblical analogies in the game. 

 

The cross in the background of the Joel and Ellie scene is most definitely deliberate.  Is that the scene where he finds her after she ran off?  If so, here he is the shepherd coming for his lost lamb, and it's the scene where we're about to hear his confession that he could not (due to love, not weakness) sacrifice his child as God did with Jesus.

 

The final scene with Abby on a pole being crucified is definitely deliberate too.   When Jesus was on the cross, a thief was being killed next to him.  He is penitent before Jesus, and Jesus promises him right then and there that he will be in Heaven that night.  That passage says that it's never too late to be redeemed.  Abby gets her redemption too.  Ellie saves her.  And Abby has no more fight in her, except when forced to save the life another, when this time Ellie has the blade to Lev's throat.  I would rather have had Abby say "you're going to have to kill us both then, but I won't fight you.", and make Ellie come to her final moment of acceptance, compassion, and grace without having first had to have such a brutal, unfair fight against an obviously weakened opponent.  This is immaturity and the need for one last fight sequence coming forth from the developers, rather than the telling a good morality tale.  It would have been a perfect role reversal, given Abby another real moment of self-sacrifice, and made the ending even more tragic when an at-peace, instead of just broken,  Ellie returns to find Dina gone. 

 

So maybe the game is answering the question, what if God had changed his mind, and let man fall further into sin, rather than letting Christ die in our place.  But do I think they are really going for some sort of spiritual, Christian message in this game?  No, almost certainly not.  More likely they are like Jules in "Pulp Fiction" who quoted a bible verse (that's really nowhere to be found in the actual Bible) just because he thought it was something badass to say before he busts a cap in someone's ass. 

 

They probably just thought a few crosses made sense in a game about moral failings and moral good, altruistic and selfish motives, and the secular world's ever blurring line between good and evil.

 

 

 

 

Carlos.

 

 

 

 

 

This is excellent! Thank you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ever since watching this game, I had been trying to think of a movie it reminded me of, 

Spoiler

 a tale of revenge that goes horribly wrong for all parties involved.  At first I thought maybe  The Road to Perdition, but that movie doesnt end in complete tragedy.

 

Likewise with Man on Fire. That movie is vengeful as fuck,  but it ends with a selfless redemptive act.

 

Finally it dawned on me.  Its Revenge, a 1990 film starring Kevin Costner, Anthony Quinn,  and Madeline Stowe.  Anyone else see this?  It's almost as fucked up a story as TLOU2, dark and depressing. Now I'm wondering if there are others that might compare. 

 

Any other really tragic tales of revenge I'm forgetting?

 

 

Carlos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting seeing streamers' reactions to this part of the game.

 

Spoiler

 

 

They were not too happy at this part either.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I have to admit...

 

Spoiler

...when the game switched over to Abby, I was not as upset about it as others were. I was genuinely interested in knowing what was her motivation for killing Joel. When I realized who she was — or rather who her father was — I got it and totally sympathized with her. I had complete faith in Druckman and his team to tell the story right and make the journey with her worthwhile. In the end, I was not disappointed. I can totally understand why people were so upset when they realized that they had to play as her, but It's just something I never felt myself.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Carlucci said:

Ever since watching this game, I had been trying to think of a movie it reminded me of, 

  Hide contents

 a tale of revenge that goes horribly wrong for all parties involved.  At first I thought maybe  The Road to Perdition, but that movie doesnt end in complete tragedy.

 

Likewise with Man on Fire. That movie is vengeful as fuck,  but it ends with a selfless redemptive act.

 

Finally it dawned on me.  Its Revenge, a 1990 film starring Kevin Costner, Anthony Quinn,  and Madeline Stowe.  Anyone else see this?  It's almost as fucked up a story as TLOU2, dark and depressing. Now I'm wondering if there are others that might compare. 

 

Any other really tragic tales of revenge I'm forgetting?

 

 

Carlos.


......

 

 

A bit different but “I Saw The Devil” and “Oldboy” (the original) come to mind. “I Saw The Devil” is particularly messed up in that the protagonist not only catches his prey once - he lets him go and hunts him down several times only to torture him all over again. It’s a deeply disturbing endurance test.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Romier S said:

I like this a lot...

 

Me too. I think it articulates a lot of what I liked about the game’s story. Maybe not everyone is happy with the way it turned out, but it was a gutsy move by Naughty Dog to do what they did, and I admire them greatly for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love this, too. Watch a dude go from complete hate of the mid-game, to calling out the writing to slowly realizing how things are playing out and loving it...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/3/2020 at 1:04 AM, Romier S said:

I love this, too. Watch a dude go from complete hate of the mid-game, to calling out the writing to slowly realizing how things are playing out and loving it...

 

 

 

Same guy, now on the other side of the story.

Spoiler


 

Dude is all sorts of conflicted emotionally now. 😀

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As expected. He’s a stream of conscience and I’m enjoying it. There’s so much about the story that’s up in the air until the finale. Interested to see his thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...