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Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (SPOILER FREE) Discussion Thread

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In the original I am sure he had no long term plan as he was just trying to get one film made. He has changed his story about knowing the Vader twist over the years on that.

 

As bad as most of it may be, Lucas had main story beats planned out for the entire prequel trilogy before he started.Things may change  slightly, but he had a direction he knew he was going in from film to film.  He even had his own outline for the 7-9 trilogy that they discarded when Disney took over.

 

You would think a company who has done a 21 movie franchise in 11 years would take some lessons from that and have plans for the basic beats of a trilogy before they jumped in. 

 

 

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Marvel gave their directors autonomy with some guidelines and restraints and made it work.  For SW they clearly lacked creative vision , I kinda wish JJ did TLJ and Johnson did the last movie in the trilogy.  The TLJ felt like a conclusion movie.  Half of what I didn't like about the TLJ was how it finalized everything in the middle of a trilogy.  It would have gone over better if it was actually the conclusion.

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Yeah, in the case of the originals, I'm sure there was at least an outline of ep 5 and 6 once ESB started, and it's pretty clear that the major beats in the prequels were planned.  To hear them tell it though, it sounds like everything in 7-9 started as a pretty blank slate.  Yes, you want to give people some level of autonomy and creative vision, but I can imagine that the outline for Guardians of the Galaxy was something like "here are the main characters, and it involves an infinity stone, and here's the connection to Thanos", while Dr Strange got something like "the eye or Agomotto is the time stone" and maybe "drop this bit in about how the infinity stones came to be" and perhaps even "here's how we can set up Ragnarok at the end".  Someone had the idea of what the overall story was, and where the universe had to be at the end. 

 

I'm a little worried that Ep9 is going to try to pull things back to being "too safe" given force awakens.  There's a balance to be struck there-hopefully they found it. 

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“We’ll honor VIII but there’s more to it than that”

 

Translation: “Shes gonna be related to someone because the Star Wars universe can’t possibly exist without an established character genes running through half the cast.”

 

It’s hard to keep giving the movie the benefit of the doubt when most of what I’m hearing sounds exactly like my worst fears personified when Abrams was announced. I wish Johnson was directing plain and simple.

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4 hours ago, JoeyN said:

In the original I am sure he had no long term plan as he was just trying to get one film made. He has changed his story about knowing the Vader twist over the years on that.

 

As bad as most of it may be, Lucas had main story beats planned out for the entire prequel trilogy before he started.Things may change  slightly, but he had a direction he knew he was going in from film to film.  

 

Regarding central story points, yes of course, that goes without saying. That wasn't quite what I was referring to, but rather things that might on the surface be considered smaller decisions which in fact have dramatic effect on how a story pans our or is interpreted, whether it be deciding to make Luke and Leia siblings, deciding that Boba Fett is a product of a clone upon whom all Clone Wars Stormtroopers were based, or deciding to make Anakin younger than originally conceived when we first meet him in Phantom Menace. Making Anakin younger in turns meant having to make Obi-Wan younger, which then lead to the invention of a new mentor for Obi-wan and so on and so forth. Little changes like that along the way that, when we step back and look at everything as a whole, actually create some narrative unevenness on account of not having been thought out from the very beginning.

 

Again though, it's those little things that evolve and can cause disruption and challenges during the creative process, which is why I'd argue what they are juggling with the new trilogy isn't all that different to what Lucas himself was grappling with on the previous films, because it's ultimately just an inherent part of the absurdity of making movies.

 

4 hours ago, JoeyN said:

He even had his own outline for the 7-9 trilogy that they discarded when Disney took over.

 

Hi did, and then Michael Arndt came in and began thinking up something new and contributed enough to still receive credit on VII, but nevertheless Abrams and Kasdan steered things in different directions, and heck they even talk of things changing again mid filming when Ford's injury allowed for some downtime and a chance to rethink their story even more. None of this is specifically unusual about film development though.

 

4 hours ago, JoeyN said:

You would think a company who has done a 21 movie franchise in 11 years would take some lessons from that and have plans for the basic beats of a trilogy before they jumped in. 

 

The "company" being Disney, obviously. To that I'd ask, what evidence of their influence over any Marvel or Lucasfilm operation do we have beyond the parent company laying out expectations for the number of films a year, their budgets and release dates? Lucasfilm does not operate like Marvel, nor should it, but both operate with relative autonomy in the grand scheme of things.

 

Really though, what am I missing that's got people so concerned that the circumstances surrounding the production of this trilogy is having a seriously detrimental affect on the story and the evolution of its characters? It does seem a bit silly that we're even discussing this before we know how those responsible for making these films have chosen to wrap things up, but looking at what we've had so far we can say Force Awakens was a relatively clean slate presenting us with new characters and not having to tie up what was already a perfectly reasonable conclusion to the saga with Return of the Jedi. Abrams has spoken regularly of his "mystery box" approach to storytelling throughout his career, and for a first movie that works just fine in serving up page turning ambiguities. Naturally he had his own thoughts about where it might go next, just as Hamill and Kershner had different thoughts to Lucas as to where things might go after Empire, and just as we as fans sit here spending time pondering our own different ideas as to where the story could go. So then we look to Last Jedi where it was never Johnson's mandate to start providing answers but to do what second acts regularly do in separating protagonists and challenging them in new an interesting ways (and it bloody well succeeded in my view). Indeed nothing he did, NOTHING, actually dismisses or draws a line under any of the key questions Force Awakens presents to the viewer. 

 

We do know that if there was any one constant thread that Kennedy and others had looked to it was a vision that Force Awakens would see Han in a central role, Last Jedi would see Luke in a central role, and IX would see Leia in a central role, so let's also not forget what a tragic unforeseeable change of real life circumstances can do to unbalance long term plans. Now the baton has been handed back to Abrams, there's nothing prohibiting him from concluding Rey's story the way he might have once imagined in the back of his mind. The means in which he's been challenged to reach his destination might have changed, but with the appearance of the remains of the sunken Death Star II, we know he's revisiting ideas thrown around during the early development of Force Awakens, so who knows what else he's returning to.   

 

 

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We do know that if there was any one constant thread that Kennedy and others had looked to it was a vision that Force Awakens would see Han in a central role, Last Jedi would see Luke in a central role,

 

They knew about Han dying, but that was not the plan that they told Mark Hamill for Luke. He has said many times that when he signed on, he was told his role would be much different then the way they went, and he would be much more involved in the movies. Especially the Force Awakens. Hearing him talk the last few months has been pretty eye opening to how productions on the first two of this trilogy has gone. 

 

As for Marvel, until after Age of Ultron,Feige did not have as much freedom as he did once they were separated from Perlmutter. They still had a basic outline of story beats to lead towards Infinity War and Thanos. Writers and directors have freedom for most the most part , but every single film has some story beat with a connection to past movies, and upcoming things in some way.  I’m sure they know where the next 5-10 years of films and Disney+ shows are heading as well.

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15 minutes ago, Romier S said:

“We’ll honor VIII but there’s more to it than that”

 

Translation: “Shes gonna be related to someone because the Star Wars universe can’t possibly exist without an established character genes running through half the cast.”

 

It’s hard to keep giving the movie the benefit of the doubt when most of what I’m hearing sounds exactly like my worst fears personified when Abrams was announced. I wish Johnson was directing plain and simple.

 

Since Force Awakens I've long had the lingering suspicion that he perceived her to be a Kenobi descendant on account of that Easter Egg where he speaks directly to her, and that the question was never who her parents were (Abrams/Kasdan even have Maz tell her that they're never coming back), but instead who her grandparents might have been. Like you, I prefer that she's just Rey and that special lineage plays no part in defining her, but that's not a sentiment I feel Abrams may share. While I might agree with Keith that Last Jedi's very last scene is one that could well have been best served at the conclusion of the final chapter, it will perhaps take on greater value playing where it does at the end of the second film if indeed the third movies does not seek to build upon the concept that anyone can control the force. 

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10 minutes ago, Angry the Clown said:

 

Since Force Awakens I've long had the lingering suspicion that he perceived her to be a Kenobi descendant on account of that Easter Egg where he speaks directly to her, and that the question was never who her parents were (Abrams/Kasdan even have Maz tell her that they're never coming back), but instead who her grandparents might have been. Like you, I prefer that she's just Rey and that special lineage plays no part in defining her, but that's not a sentiment I feel Abrams may share. While I might agree with Keith that Last Jedi's very last scene is one that could well have been best served at the conclusion of the final chapter, it will perhaps take on greater value playing where it does at the end of the second film if indeed the third movies does not seek to build upon the concept that anyone can control the force. 

 

Your last statement is truly the element I think JJ is going to ignore the most. It’s specifically what I found so refreshing about “The Last Jedi” in that it established a path forward so unlike what we had seen in the previous 7 movies. A universe of possible force users not confined to one monastic order that controls who gets what and when. I feel like we’re going to end up in a place where Rey or whomever is running a Jedi School with new Padawans and that’s that. TLJ reconstructed what it meant to be a Jedi and it left me excited to see where things were going.

 

Im happy to be proven wrong, JJ......

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17 minutes ago, JoeyN said:

 

They knew about Han dying, but that was not the plan that they told Mark Hamill for Luke. He has said many times that when he signed on, he was told his role would be much different then the way they went, and he would be much more involved in the movies. Especially the Force Awakens. Hearing him talk the last few months has been pretty eye opening to how productions on the first two of this trilogy has gone. 

 

giphy.gif

 

:)

 

To turn myself into a stuck record, the creative process is one that is constantly in flux for an abundance of reasons. Johnson never started his journey on VIII with the intention of killing off Luke either, it's just where the story ended up taking him as he was writing it, nobody at Lucasfilm or Disney slammed their foot down and said "no way," and honestly it serves the movie and the character perfectly just as Hamill later came to respect (plus in a universe of Jedi ghosts few would say VIII concludes Luke's part in all this). Sometimes I wonder if Hamill realises just how exceptional his performance in the film is.

 

It's interesting going back to Michael Arndt talking about his early Force Awakens drafts because he's said where he struggled was trying to place Luke in the story, that whenever he did the character just took over and distracted from the new characters because the expectations on what Luke could and might do were always so high. It seems something of a blessing and a curse that the filmmakers have had the classic characters to play with. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, JoeyN said:

Writers and directors have freedom for most the most part , but every single film has some story beat with a connection to past movies, and upcoming things in some way.  I’m sure they know where the next 5-10 years of films and Disney+ shows are heading as well.

 

Which is great and is what helps make the MCU feel so unique. I fail to see why it should be seen as a model for Lucasfilm to operate the same way, however.

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26 minutes ago, Romier S said:

 

Your last statement is truly the element I think JJ is going to ignore the most. It’s specifically what I found so refreshing about “The Last Jedi” in that it established a path forward so unlike what we had seen in the previous 7 movies. A universe of possible force users not confined to one monastic order that controls who gets what and when. I feel like we’re going to end up in a place where Rey or whomever is running a Jedi School with new Padawans and that’s that.

 

Im happy to be proven wrong, JJ......

 

It's an interesting thing, really. I get the sense that scene between Maz and Rey was one of the key starting off points for Johnson when he was starting to think about his story because Maz reiterates Yoda's words about the force being all around and passing through everyone, and at the same time Maz is also telling Rey to forget the past which is, of course, one of the biggest messages (to both the characters AND the audience) that Last Jedi put forward. 

 

Again though, that Obi-wan easter egg in Force Awakens does make me wonder about Abrams' intent there. I do hope that in IX, if nothing else, Abrams makes good on Maz's "story for another time" with regards to how she came to obtain Anakin/Luke's lightsaber in the first place. That was such an odd throwaway line, although I know that originally Maz handed the lightsaber to Leia (it was a shot in one fo the trailers) in a deleted scene which I don't THINK has been amongst the deleted scenes on either of the Blu-ray releases has it? That might well be a key one they are reusing in Rise of Skywalker, in which case it's just as well they never released it.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Angry the Clown said:

 

giphy.gif

 

:)

 

To turn myself into a stuck record, the creative process is one that is constantly in flux for an abundance of reasons. Johnson never started his journey on VIII with the intention of killing off Luke either, it's just where the story ended up taking him as he was writing it, nobody at Lucasfilm or Disney slammed their foot down and said "no way," and honestly it serves the movie and the character perfectly just as Hamill later came to respect (plus in a universe of Jedi ghosts few would say VIII concludes Luke's part in all this).

 

This just emphasizes even further that they had no cohesive plan. Luke's death would have a point they'd have mapped out.

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7 hours ago, Starhawk said:

 

This just emphasizes even further that they had no cohesive plan. Luke's death would have a point they'd have mapped out.

 

But what difference would it have made whether they had planned it years in advance or, as was the case, ended up reaching the decision organically? He’d have still died. Would they have even done it in either instance if it was possible to have foreseen losing Fisher? 

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Having the trilogy planned out may or may not have made things different 🤷‍♂️, we know JJ had some ideas for 8/9 when he left 7, Rian then went off and did his own thing, that's part of the creative process, but it doesn't feel like a unified vision, we won't know how this all turns out until after 9.

 

KK is also saying bringing back Palpatine has been in the cards for a long time..

 

 

Part of the issue for me is it might as well be called the "Story for Another Time" trilogy. Not everything needs an explanation, but some of these story beats are coming out of no where, Where did Snoke come from? How did he take control of the First Order? How did he get to Ben Solo? Maybe those questions will be answered in 9, probably not, but we'll see.

 

IMO, They really needed more development/pre-production time on each film vs a totally set plan, but I do believe having an agreed upon vision would have helped.

 

 

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1 hour ago, NickC said:

Part of the issue for me is it might as well be called the "Story for Another Time" trilogy. Not everything needs an explanation, but some of these story beats are coming out of no where, Where did Snoke come from? How did he take control of the First Order? How did he get to Ben Solo? Maybe those questions will be answered in 9, probably not, but we'll see.

 

IMO, They really needed more development/pre-production time on each film vs a totally set plan, but I do believe having an agreed upon vision would have helped.

 

 

 

I think Snoke will be explained, whether it be via a flashback or whatever. If Palpatine was always being floated around in Lucasfilm story meetings then it stands to reason that Abrams and Kasdan might have envisioned Snoke as something of a red herring from the start, and that may have given Johnson all the more fuel to just kill him when he did. I never liked the thought of Snoke just being an Emperor facsimile which is kind of how Force Awakens presented him (so I was all the more delighted when Johnson wrote him out). I do also like the fact that Kylo is now Supreme Leader as he's now effectively appointed himself a higher ranking than Vader ever achieved. I'm particularly excited to see how Kylo's story ends actually. I think he's been the most interesting new character the series has had since the classic trilogy and has kind of encapsulated everything I once imagined Anakin to be. 

 

I'm delighted this trilogy has created new droids, new heroes and new villains to love. If nothing else that will go down as one of its greatest and worthwhile achievements (along with gifting us more wonderful music), but we are nevertheless dealing with three films bringing closure to a saga that honestly had perfectly decent closure over 35yrs ago. I'm anxious about the Emperor factor, perhaps more so than I am Rey being linked to someone, because a lot is going to depend on quite how he is depicted. If he's a clone, or back in any kind of physical form I'm not sure I'd buy it, as bringing him back physically would potentially undermine Vader's redemption ark. If he is, however, depicted as some kind of negative force presence then it would be interesting to explore as it would be something we haven't seen before (in the movies. Again, I can't speak for the expanded universe).  I don't necessarily mind him being back because he is, after all, the BIG bad, which is precisely another reason why I am happy Snoke wasn't just a device to repeat the villain hierarchy we've had before. On the other hand, I do like Kylo effectively rising to become the big bad himself and what that might be doing to him psychologically, so I hope the Emperor doesn't take away too much from that. 

 

There's a whole lot of plates to spin in this final act. 

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I'm just in the opposite position, really. I'm overjoyed they don't feel the need to answer every one of those questions. The world of Star Wars seems huge because so many things are hinted at in the original film without wasting time telling us the details. What were the Clone Wars? What did Anakin and Obi-wan do in them to be so highly regarded? How come Han thinks the Jedi are just a myth if Vader spends so much time Force-choking his underlings?

 

Spending the whole Prequel trilogy answering these things, tying so many disparate threads together (Leia's protocol droid was built by Anakin as a kid? Who lived on Tatooine? Really?) makes the place seem so much smaller and more mundane. Leave some mystery.

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11 minutes ago, iainl said:

I'm just in the opposite position, really. I'm overjoyed they don't feel the need to answer every one of those questions. The world of Star Wars seems huge because so many things are hinted at in the original film without wasting time telling us the details. What were the Clone Wars? What did Anakin and Obi-wan do in them to be so highly regarded? How come Han thinks the Jedi are just a myth if Vader spends so much time Force-choking his underlings?

 

Spending the whole Prequel trilogy answering these things, tying so many disparate threads together (Leia's protocol droid was built by Anakin as a kid? Who lived on Tatooine? Really?) makes the place seem so much smaller and more mundane. Leave some mystery.

 

I think the prequels were particularly hard to swallow for many of us of a certain age for that very reason. We'd had our childhoods, and a hell of a lot of toys, to imagine that backstory ourselves, and enough time to fill in the blanks, so when a fully formed depiction of those events was handed to us it was never going to live up to things our imaginations dreamt up all those years ago. That's kind of why new Star Wars is interesting, because the movies, cartoons and TV shows are all now being made by the generation who grew up with the toys. 

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5 hours ago, iainl said:

I'm just in the opposite position, really. I'm overjoyed they don't feel the need to answer every one of those questions. The world of Star Wars seems huge because so many things are hinted at in the original film without wasting time telling us the details. What were the Clone Wars? What did Anakin and Obi-wan do in them to be so highly regarded? How come Han thinks the Jedi are just a myth if Vader spends so much time Force-choking his underlings?

 

Spending the whole Prequel trilogy answering these things, tying so many disparate threads together (Leia's protocol droid was built by Anakin as a kid? Who lived on Tatooine? Really?) makes the place seem so much smaller and more mundane. Leave some mystery.

 

That's fair, however the sequel trilogy is a continuation of past events we've witnessed, not the middle of a story like the original trilogy, some mystery is good, I agree with you on that, George answered a lot of questions no one wanted answers to (3PO) and it hurt the prequels, Solo did that as well, if you're going to build on the OT you should be able to provide something on where the new villain came from and how he got to your main protagonist, again, maybe 9 will answer those questions, until then i'll call this the "a good story for another time" trilogy.

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15 hours ago, Angry the Clown said:

 

But what difference would it have made whether they had planned it years in advance or, as was the case, ended up reaching the decision organically? He’d have still died. Would they have even done it in either instance if it was possible to have foreseen losing Fisher? 

 

It's not the point of Luke dying or not. In that interview, JJ basically makes the process sound like this.

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5 minutes ago, Starhawk said:

 

It's not the point of Luke dying or not. In that interview, JJ basically makes the process sound like this.

 

Hah. Well, that’s not all that far removed from his “mystery box” approach that he defines for the way he likes to work. 

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PROOF THAT LUCASFILM HAD THE ENTIRE SEQUEL TRILOGY PLANNED FROM THE START!!!!!!

 

 

The only thing wrong is the episode number.

 

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Lol Lucas said he had 7-9 planned out , but they did not follow it with the new films,

 

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Vanity Fair Images and Article.

 

Really nice images from Annie Leibovitz 

 

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-opener.

 

J.J. Abrams, alongside Stunt Coordinator Eunice Huthart, directs the Knights of Ren; elite fearsome enforcers of Kylo Ren’s dark will.

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-1

 

Vanity Fair reveals Keri Russell as the masked scoundrel Zorri Bliss, seen in the Thieves’ Quarter of the snow-dusted world Kijimi.

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-0

 

First Order leaders General Hux (Domhnall Gleeson) and Allegiant General Pryde (Richard E. Grant) on the bridge of Kylo Ren’s destroyer.

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-0

 

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-0

 

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-0

 

Finn and new ally Jannah (Naomi Ackie), atop hardy orbaks, lead the charge against the mechanized forces of the First Order. “It’s extremely surreal to be in it,” says Ackie, “and see how it works from the inside.”

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-0

 

Kylo Ren (Adam Driver) and Rey battle it out with lightsabers in a stormy confrontation. Their Force-connection—what Driver calls their “maybe-bond”—will turn out to run even deeper than previously revealed.

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-0

 

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-0

 

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-0

 

Jordanian locals play the Aki-Aki, natives of the planet Pasaana.

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-0

 

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-1

 

Mark Hamill, as Luke, with R2-D2. Speculation is rampant about who will “rise” as the Skywalker of the movie’s title—and how that choice will reflect the way the world has changed since Star Wars debuted in 1977.

star-wars-feature-vf-2019-summer-embed-1

 

 

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/star-wars-cover-story?verso=true

 

 

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