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Star Wars Episode IX Conjecture and Spoiler Thread

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The force power to transfer stuff was sort of set up in SW rebels near the end. It was an Interesting few episodes about the force.
 

They really didnt use the power of all past folks. That planet is very strong in the dark side and helps amplify his powers. Thus the crazy force lightning . She just pushed back against it. The way palp healed himself is also rare. They just throws things into the movie, and dont really explain much.

 

The third saber is a neutral color for bringing balance. She buried the blue and red.


 

As for Daniels question about the books, Aftermath, Darth Plageous and Resistance are good. I’m listening to the audio book of resistance at the moment.

 

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On 12/19/2019 at 5:15 PM, Angry the Clown said:

Now the knee-jerk reaction phase has passed (emphasis on jerk, obviously), I've reflected on things a lot more, so stop reading if you wish to avoid a deep dive into things before you see it for yourselves.

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It's the lack of ambition that surprised me. A lack of ambition that sadly infects many facets of the film. It almost leaves me wondering whether Abrams was genuinely as invested and excited to approach this one as much he was with Force Awakens, or whether he was burdened here by the unenviable task of trying to create an ending to a saga that actually ended neatly in 1983. Endings have perhaps never been his strong point. He likes his "mystery box," and I think that a lot of the issues with Rise of Skywalker lie not with anything The Last Jedi did, but a handful of the things Force Awakens both did and indeed failed to do. 

 

Is Rise a fan service rehash? Well, yes and no. Certainly not in the sense that the central beats of Force Awakens echoed the original film, but it is the emperor resurrection angle that kills a lot of the movie's good will stone dead for me. Is it really the best they could do? To take us back to that? I'd wondered how it might manifest after the first trailer reveal. I'd hoped it might not come in an obvious physical sense, but feared it would, and certainly those fears are realised right at the very opening of the film. I keep coming back to the term bewildering, and I do think it's fair. The opening crawl is so matter of fact about messages from the Emperor. Now, one could argue Jedi was similar in the reveal that there was a second Death Star, but the Death Star was a device, the Emperor is a presence in five of the previous films, and is vital to the emotional investment in conflict characters face in Return of the Jedi. To undo it in such a way is to effectively undo Anakin's redemption arc entirely, rendering his efforts rather meaningless. It just feels so random and unearned, and the film wastes no time in revealing him, his lair, and explaining away Snoke. McDiarmid is of course a treat to watch, and Palpatine's physical depiction here is effectively creepy. That's never in question. What's in question, at least for me, was why is this even a thing? How was the final order starfleet conjured? Who's even manning those ships? 

 

I have a very vague recollection of George Lucas once saying he was interested in further exploring both light and dark sides of the force on a microbiotic level. I'm sure it was laughed off by people ("crazy George"...etc) as obviously it ties to talk of midichorians, but I've really been intrigued by the idea of exploring the force itself in greater detail, and did wonder whether that's what this trilogy might have tried to do on some level, whether it was a deeper dive into the hows and whys of midiclorians or, as I think I would have been keen to see, further exploration of the more spiritual side of things that I think Last Jedi opened the door to, but Rise largely opts to close. That's why I've often asked some of you familiar with the expanded universe stuff whether there had ever been evidence of malevolent force ghosts. In many ways it would make sense that Palpatine's body could be destroyed, but his spirit live on. Alas, here we get a clone(?), and strange in that case to think he might have only sought to have himself cloned only once when he was smart enough to realise the value of having a backup Death Star. Or is it in fact his reanimated corpse? That's even more bizarre to think his body would have survived at the end of Jedi.

 

While Force Awakens and Last Jedi both have an action set piece too many at points for my liking, where I'd have preferred for the stories to take a moment to slow down (tentacle creatures in TFA, and the escape from the casino town in TLJ), Rise of Skywalker is damn near relentless in its pacing. A moment of action here, a moment of action there. Over to this planet, then over to that planet. Escape after escape, but does any of it feel genuinely engaging? If anything it's rather exhausting.

 

Take away the opening reveal of Palpatine and I actually don't dislike much in the first two acts of the movie. While once again I was sad not to see R2 and 3PO reunited for any length of time in this trilogy, it's nice to have the key characters grouped together for a chunk of the story, something which none of the previous films have really done since the escape from the Death Star in the original film. It remains a charming and charismatic cast, arguably the greatest asset to this trilogy, and it's fun to see them play off of one another even if the characters are not really developing. That fact, to me, only goes to enhance the value of Last Jedi even further because much of what the last film did with the characters allows them to be more carefree this time around. To repeat a criticism from the non-spoiler thread however, while nothing in this series has ever made me angry, the sidelining of Rose here did leave me extremely bitter. I genuinely love that character. She was an endearing sense of earnestness who carried one of The Last Jedi's core messages that's as relevant to the goings on in that movie as it is in the modern world, and even on that basis alone Rise of Skywalker has zero ambition to expand on that or place her in a position where she might even have those virtues challenged. Furthermore, they had a chance to stand up to the toxicity surrounding the character and abuse towards Tran by growing her character, but they chose not to take it. Worse, Finn even invites Rose to come with them on their adventure, but she replies that she has some charts/schematics or some such to look over. Again, it's just another bewildering choice the film makes.

 

Is the explanation of Rey's heritage a giant middle finger to Rian Johnson? I'd say... not really? Johnson was smart enough to leave that ambiguous in the knowledge another filmmaker was going to pick up form where he left off, and for all we know he might have known what outcome was being tossed around at Lucasfilm. It was either what Rey needed to hear at the time, or what Kylo needed to convince himself of at the time, or a mixture of both. Do I prefer that she was a nobody? I certainly think so. Being super special on account of one's heritage isn't a particularly strong message from a narrative point of view, and makes the galaxy feel a lot smaller amidst Disney's promise that there are supposedly endless storytelling possibilities out there with this franchise. Last Jedi's statement about moving on form the past is also as relevant to older fans as it is the new characters, but I seem to recall most of us who shared that view in 2017 were pretty confident that they wouldn't be bold enough to stick with such a basic explanation in the final film (consequently it was bizarre seeing the backlash from people who failed to remember there was another movie to come that could give them the answers they so desperately craved). So, nothing really came as a surprise here, that in itself being a problem I suppose. Jodie Comer as Rey's mother was a happy cameo (unrelated, but similarly pleasing, was John Williams' cameo elsewhere too).

 

It's surprising how little Luke features in helping Rey along. In fact, Hamill doesn't really look like he was all that keen to be there in the five minutes he is given (Ford seemed happier to do his little part). Aside from one (in my opinion satisfying) moment of fan service when ghost Luke raises the X-wing form the water, you kind of come away wondering if Abrams ever really knew what to do with Luke having reduced him to so little both here and in Force Awakens. I truly think in time many more will come around to The Last Jedi and be grateful for the richness of the material that we got there, and for what I genuinely think was a remarkable performance from Hamill. 

 

I do think the handling of Leia was done very well considering the challenges that the tragedy of Fisher's loss left them with. They've used that existing footage very tastefully, and it says a lot that the film's most emotional impact comes from an actor who sadly wasn't actually there to commit to the role directly. Indeed, the use of Leia plays quite wonderfully with Kylo's arc which I did find to be one of the most satisfying things about the film, if not the most... except that even there, the film cannot help itself but to serve up another random and unearned moment, a kiss that seems present only to delight the Reylo meme fans. It damn near ruins a perfectly poignant moment between Ben and Rey, and there was a palpable sense of "what the fuck" in the audience when it happened. The embrace was enough. Ben smiling was DEVASTATING and really hit me (remarkable how Driver has a similar mouth to Ford), and his body departing at peace along with Leia's was really beautiful. Loved Ben’s little shrug when he turns to take on the Knights, incidentally.

 

Finally, I guess I want to address the star war itself. I genuinely thought we'd get the space battle to end all space battles, but Return of the Jedi still proudly takes the cake. I am sure many minds will immediately leap to Endgame upon the sight of the fleet of rebel ships coming to the rescue, but my thoughts actually took me to the little ships of the Dunkirk evacuation. Just as you expect to be thrown headfirst into the most exhilarating arial battle modern technology could conjure up, it's not long before Palpatine sends out an electromagnetic pulse stopping everything dead in its tracks, and all the action is set against the murky blue and grey tones, with choppy editing making it difficult to follow the action. Again, that word... bewildering. And, it has to be said, the film is as visually unambitious as it is narratively (more so in fact). I can't really think of a single visual moment that has stayed with me, where as Force Awakens has a few, and Last Jedi had dozens.

 

A clusterfuck it is not. I take back that initial reaction, but it's the film's overriding sense of "just get it done" that leaves me so sad about it turned out really. Even where it strives to be a joyous celebration of the franchise, it falls flat (remarkable given Force Awakens hits all the right buttons in that regard). It's so weird that it should feel so underwhelming. There's immense talent involved on both sides of the camera here. That's been true of all three films. I will defend Kathleen Kennedy until I am blue in the face. Her resume speaks for itself, and the pile on towards her is deeply misguided and in many circles drenched in misogyny. The pressure from higher up however, for a trilogy film every two years, with spin offs, cartoons and TV shows in between, would be more than most producers could bare. It's a concern we all had when Disney first announced their plans. Their rush to churn things out is as perplexing today as it was in 2013 when they first revealed their roadmap. It's mind boggling to think we've seen a trilogy completed in the space of four-years, and a total of six Star Wars films, a cartoon and a TV show in that time. Iger is a shrewd businessman, and an asset to shareholders, but one has to wonder if he genuinely likes movies, such as his want to fast track production cycles, vault 20th Century Fox's catalogue...etc. 

 

PS: I love that slug alien who's everyone's friend for some reason that I hope a series of six spin-off novels will explain. That goofy little creature that hacks 3PO made me laugh too. Also, it is bizarrely amusing how naked Chewie looks when you simply remove his belt.

 

Just wanted to say that I agree with just about everything that you say here. I just want to put check-marks next to everything rather than offering any more commentary. 

 

I do want to say that I did indeed think of EndGame for the "Reinforcements save the day" moment. Only difference is this.  In End Game they masterfully made me forget that reinforcements might come. In this it was so telegraphed throughout the movie, and even with Poe's "All is lost" moment, that it fell flat.  However, even flat it raised my heartbeat because I'm a sucker for those types of moments.

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11 minutes ago, foogledricks said:

the sidelining of Rose here did leave me extremely bitter.

 

  • I rewatched TLJ today. And I have to say that I'm glad I did. Because I absorbed a greater appreciation for what the movie actually contributes to the series. And having seen ROS, I see how it all fits in and feel much better about it.  But part of that is because JJ re-routes some of it which softens things that I didn't like. 
  •  I like that Rey becomes a Skywalker, even though it could have been executed better. I like the destination. 
  • I did not like the Rose kiss in TLJ.  Just thought it was cheesy and unearned. So I wasn't excited to see more of her here. Likewise the kiss in this movie was a little weird and unearned. They should never have kissed. They're companionship was enough without the kiss.
  • Also, I knew Ben would die and thought they did a good job making me question that with the length of that sequence. I was like, he's gonna die he's gonna die he's gonna die .... wait, maybe he's not gonna die... no, he's gonna die.
  • I kinda wish Rey died, but that would have denied me a lot of satisfaction that I got by having that last seen burying the light sabers.
  • I thought Fin's new friend on the horse, and their relationship, was also unearned. When, during the last battle, she shows dedication and admiration for Fin, I wasn't feeling it. That relationship needed way more time to cook.
  • Poe and Felicities relationship has backstory, so I buy their relationship a little more. Though it was still a little forced.
  • In the end, when you have good characters, you can drag me through a story with plot issues and I can usually hang on and enjoy everything you want me to enjoy.  That's the case here.  I probably enjoyed this movie more than it deserved to be enjoyed. Fanboyism plus some great characters pulled me through.
  • Wish Raz had more of a role.

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So just for some perspective, I went the other day with my son (7) and my dad (70), which was really kind of a great moment.  My dad and I have been watching Star Wars together forever.  He's never really been into the extended universe stuff, whereas I was reading most of the EU stuff through the 90s.  My daughter never really got into Star Wars (despite my trying), but Calvin really latched onto it this year, so it meant that I actually got to watch a Star Wars movie in a theater with one of my kids.  They both loved it.   Dad thought it was a great way to wrap up everything, and Calvin thought the lightsabers were cool ("Rey had THREE lightsabers, and one of them was YELLOW"). 

 

For me, I still enjoyed it a second time, although I don't think there was a whole lot that hinted at much of a bigger story.  Again, the whole problem of how/why nobody helped the resistance at Crait, but then they came out to Exagol really didn't make much sense, and I think Rey could have not been a Palpatine and the story would have been just as good.  I think history is going to look back on TLJ in a much friendlier light than in the immediate aftermath. 

 

Honestly, I was wondering why Lando needed to be in this movie at all.  Other than the scene where he explains that nobody in the original rebellion knew what they were doing (which seems like he was the Leia stand in), I don't really understand why they needed him, other than to say "hey, it's Lando!".

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Well that’s probably because an entire plot point about his child being taken by the first order, and the women Finn met is his daughter,was never actually fleshed out in the film.

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Jannah’s a good character. I liked Naomi Ackie a lot but like everything else she goes underdeveloped. I’m glad they dropped that story thread as yet again it would have been another “small Galaxy” plot point. With what remains, could they honestly not see that it kind of feels like Lando’s hitting on her at the end there? 🤦‍♂️

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On 12/25/2019 at 7:40 AM, Angry the Clown said:

Jannah’s a good character. I liked Naomi Ackie a lot but like everything else she goes underdeveloped. I’m glad they dropped that story thread as yet again it would have been another “small Galaxy” plot point. With what remains, could they honestly not see that it kind of feels like Lando’s hitting on her at the end there? 🤦‍♂️

 

That's actually the way I read it at first, but then heard about the whole "Lando's daughter" thing and it made sense.  What I don't get is that if Lando is such a great ally to the resistance that when Leia calls, he'll hide on a desert planet, and if he was hanging out with Luke searching for Exagol back in the day, then where the hell was he earlier?  Even if he was off doing his own thing in Force Awakens (kind of like Han was), you'd think that if nothing else they would have contacted him from Crait?  After all, he's apparently the master recruiter?  There was even a perfect opportunity to intro him at Canto Bight (which is where I thought they'd be going) if they wanted him back more naturally. 

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1 hour ago, ChrisBardon said:

 

What I don't get is that if Lando is such a great ally to the resistance that when Leia calls, he'll hide on a desert planet, and if he was hanging out with Luke searching for Exagol back in the day, then where the hell was he earlier?  Even if he was off doing his own thing in Force Awakens (kind of like Han was), you'd think that if nothing else they would have contacted him from Crait?  After all, he's apparently the master recruiter?  There was even a perfect opportunity to intro him at Canto Bight (which is where I thought they'd be going) if they wanted him back more naturally. 

 

It's crazy how carelessly Rise treats characters in its bumbling race to the finish line. It definitely does Lando (and Luke) a disservice with that convoluted Jedi Hunter backstory and, yes, makes it harder to imagine what could have got in the way of Lando not responding to the distress call from Crait. I could have accepted Lando considering himself too old to fight again, only to find that it was up to veterans of the old rebellion to lead a new generation inspired by Luke's sacrifice. That could have given him a meatier part in the third movie while simultaneously carrying a message relevant to modern audiences about learning from veterans and survivors of past wars about standing up to oppression or be doomed to let the worst parts of history repeat themselves. That message would have actually complimented the prequels underlying message about the fragility of democracy quite nicely I think. 

 

Interestingly, Johnson actually considered having Lando in place to the DJ role on Canto Bight, but quickly dismissed it as he (understandably) couldn't imagine Lando betraying anyone again, and he also didn't just want to have him be Maz's contact and reduce him to a simple cameo. 

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8 hours ago, Angry the Clown said:

It's crazy how carelessly Rise treats characters in its bumbling race to the finish line. It definitely does Lando (and Luke) a disservice with that convoluted Jedi Hunter backstory and, yes, makes it harder to imagine what could have got in the way of Lando not responding to the distress call from Crait. I could have accepted Lando considering himself too old to fight again, only to find that it was up to veterans of the old rebellion to lead a new generation inspired by Luke's sacrifice.

 

I'm actually OK with the Luke and Lando backstory of going to hunt for Exagol together.  Not sure if this would have been before or after the academy (probably before), but it's reasonable that while Han and Leia were off forming a government and having Ben, Luke could have been off looking for more Jedi lore with his buddy Lando. 

 

I think I'm also going to choose to read Crait as a Thermopalye analog, albeit one where there are survivors left to tell the tale.  The story spreads to the point that everyone now knows that the first order can be beaten, and that there are pockets of resistance everywhere.  Again, you could have had a single throwaway line at the beginning (even in the crawl) to explain that the resistance has grown, and that the battle of Crait became a rallying cry for the galaxy.  I suppose it got defused a little when Poe laments that "there's nobody coming" at Exagol, which is a repeat of Crait. 

 

I'm actually OK with the bones of the story in Rise.  The returned emperor is fine I suppose, and the setup of Kylo wanting to remove a threat to his power is reasonable.  The reveal that Snoke was just the Emperor's pawn was fine, and the heroes' mad dash to find exagol was a reasonable way to keep a story moving, and actually give us a movie where Rey, Finn, and Poe were together the whole time (which had yet to happen).  Take out the "Rey Palpatine" stuff, and the story would have been fine.  Maybe not the best story they could have told, but it still works.  It definitely could have used another pass though, and I wonder how rushed things actually got.  I've been basically radio silent on this movie the whole time, so I don't know what was going on during production.  There's got to be a hell of a story about the making of this trilogy...  wonder who is going to write the book and when?

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6 hours ago, ChrisBardon said:

There's got to be a hell of a story about the making of this trilogy...  wonder who is going to write the book and when?


Mentioned it before but the best chance may come if Taschen get to publish a third volume of Star Wars Archives by Paul Duncan.

https://www.taschen.com/pages/en/catalogue/film/all/01170/facts.the_star_wars_archives_19771983.htm

 

Vol1 is magnificent and has an extremely good interview with Lucas, and vol2 (based on the prequels) will be published in late 2020. I am actually looking forward to that even more than I was the book on the classic trilogy as there’s still a lot we don’t know about the production and abandoned ideas from I, II and III.

 

What gives me pause about an Archives book for the sequel trilogy is that Disney are traditionally VERY protective of detailed documentation of troubled productions made on their watch. While Duncan had complete access to anything from Lucasfilm for vol1 and 2, and Lucas’ participation in both, I am not sure if their parent company will be so eager to pursue a vol3 (plus Disney enjoy profiting from their own books from this trilogy). It may be the best chance we get to have Lucas sit down and explain what he wanted in great detail though, so I hope it happens. If it does I would not expect it until 2022.

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On 12/23/2019 at 8:53 PM, JoeyN said:

The third saber is a neutral color for bringing balance. She buried the blue and red.

Upon a repeat viewing, I’m pretty sure she buried Luke’s and Leia’s sabers.

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4 minutes ago, PackFan said:

Upon a repeat viewing, I’m pretty sure she buried Luke’s and Leia’s sabers.


Ah I only saw it once, I thought it was both colors, it probably was theirs.

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16 hours ago, Angry the Clown said:

Vol1 is magnificent and has an extremely good interview with Lucas, and vol2 (based on the prequels) will be published in late 2020. I am actually looking forward to that even more than I was the book on the classic trilogy as there’s still a lot we don’t know about the production and abandoned ideas from I, II and III.

 

Right, I remember you mentioning that before.  That book looks very nice, but not sure it's worth $250.  For the OT, I have to believe that everything that could have been said about it has already been said or written, but then again, I suppose this is pulling a bunch of it together into a single source. 

 

I wouldn't expect much to make it out of Disney that's in any way critical of what happened.  If anything, it'd be 10-20 years from now.  I would like to see Lucas' ideas for where the story could have gone though.  It would also be interesting to see what Lucas' take is on the prequels with some time removed from them, since there was no shortage of material pulled together during production from the DVDs etc. 

 

 

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Saw it a second time as my brother had not yet seen the movie. Nothing really improved beyond the pleasure of just being in the company of the cast. And again, unless I am going blind there is indeed no dedication to Peter Mayhew.

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I know a lot of people are criticizing the return of Palatine and the link to Rey. And that the whole trilogy lacked a master plan.

 

But I'll remind people that JJ planted a very subtle but (I believe) intentional hint that Rey was related to Palpatine at the end of the first movie. In fact, I thought it stood out pretty harshly the first time I saw the movie. The multiple awkward times Rey used the lightsaber thrust move at the end of the movie had me scratching my head. 

 

It is such an unimpressive and weird move to use. I thought it was strange when Palpatine used it in Episode III. But specifically to use that move, twice, in succession, in Rey's relatively short light saber battle, had to be intentional. It had to be JJ hinting a connection to Palpatine.  I know some people might say its a reach. I completely disagree. It seemed almost too obvious to me.

 

If I ever catch JJ at an Applebees urinal, I'll ask him about it.

 

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So, that leaked Trevorrow treatment:

 

The thing is, it's not -all- that different to what we ended up with on screen. There are, essentially, just a few major changes and each of them strike me as the sort of thing that you'd do if you were Abrams trying to wrestle down a final script. Because structurally, there doesn't seem to be too much wrong with Rise as a Star Wars movie once you lower your expectations from "worthy follow-up to The Last Jedi"; it's mostly in cutting things down to fit the runtime and hence giving no room for characters to breathe or spaceships to fight that it's really messed up.

 

We know that tonnes of explanation as to what everyone is up to in the first 20 minutes has been stripped out - so I'm just going to skirt over most of that stuff by believing it's largely meant to have been there in the shooting script until it started looking 3 hours long. Ren's still hunting for one of those Sith Memory Cubes, the Goodies are still looking for similar info, etc. It's a nice nod for Extended Universe fans to use the word Holocron, but it doesn't help the average viewer.

 

I love the description "Lovecraftian" as much as the next guy, and I'm assuming this 4000 year old Sith teacher is who they wanted Matt Smith for; as a Who fan that's a bit disappointing. But your first draft is the wrong side of Return Of The King in length. Stripping out a load of explanation about this New Evil Throne Behind The Palpatine Throne Behind The Snoke Throne Behind The Kylo Ren Throne and replacing him with old Palps, who at least means something to the audience and now looks like a lich puppet mounted on GLaDOS, is a pretty efficient way to do it.

 

Next big difference is that we've got something for Rose to do, but that thing is "take half the gang off on one task, while the rest do something half a Galaxy away." Abrams has made repeated comments about how glad he was to finally get the Finn, Rey, Poe, BB-8 and Chewie group together on a mission at last, and as much as it pains me to say it, he's probably right.

 

Finally, I am a soppy girl. I wanted Ben to be given an opportunity to grow up and stop being a sulky brat. And, frankly, Driver well and truly delivered the biggest success of the film by doing so. Don't expect me to praise the concept of denying me that, just so Rey can kill him.

 

So yeah, I'm unconvinced by this Trevorrow Script thing. Certainly seems legit, and has a number of interesting ideas in it, but I don't believe it would have been a better film, nor do I really think most of the changes into what we've got now wouldn't have happened with or without Abrams.

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Early concept art images out from what appears to be the linked script including an oracle character or the Tor Velum character.

 

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Trevorrow calling it Duel of the Fates struck me as a very tasteful way to tie it back to Phantom Menace and bookend an aspect of the series in some fashion I have to say. I also like the idea that John Williams would have effectively inspired the title for the final movie. 

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