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Apple absolutely is a monopoly within its own ecosystem. They charge apps 30% while offering their own competing apps without that overhead (e.g. Apple Music vs Spotify, etc). They prevent third party

I don’t think it is just about lowering the cut that they receive, but about being forced to use their service and follow their guidelines without any alternative. If you want to release an app on iOS

Ya think?   Typically, I’m an Apple guy, but I think the company’s App Store policies are blatantly anti-competative. I don’t know what the outcome of this suit will be, but I will be watchi

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It's the methods Epic are taking that I just don't understand. It completely undermines the message, and is just a bad way to potentially achieve a good thing (at least if we're looking at reducing the 30% cut and what's justified in that arena, as well as improving what is and isn't allowed on these stores. Again, I'm not really itching for Epic's main aim to shove their own storefront app onto mobile devices). 

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Rather than Apple wins or Epic wins, isn’t there (shouldn’t there be) a 3rd option here? Apple just allows game streaming services on the App Store like Google does. I get these streaming apps on my iPad and play my games and I subscribe via whatever method I choose without knowing or caring what the revenue share split is between Epic and Apple? Oh, and I guess something happens with Fortnite...? I’d like option 3 please :)

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1 hour ago, Magness said:

Rather than Apple wins or Epic wins, isn’t there (shouldn’t there be) a 3rd option here? Apple just allows game streaming services on the App Store like Google does. I get these streaming apps on my iPad and play my games and I subscribe via whatever method I choose without knowing or caring what the revenue share split is between Epic and Apple? Oh, and I guess something happens with Fortnite...? I’d like option 3 please :)

 

Well the streaming issue is Microsoft's fight, and one I hope they win. They're certainly taking a more mature approach to make progress there. Apple's argument for blocking it seems very weak. 

 

Streaming apps isn't really anything to do with what Epic are chasing. Epic want access to Apple and Google customers, but not have to pay for that access, and they want to do it via way of having their own Epic Store app on those devices. It's quite clear that's the ultimate goal, particularly when they apparently got close to doing it on One Plus and LG phones running Android before Google put a stop to it (this is detailed in their legal papers and addressed in the videos I shared, and The Verge cover it here too). 

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12 minutes ago, Angry the Clown said:

Streaming apps isn't really anything to do with what Epic are chasing. Epic want access to Apple and Google customers, but not have to pay for that access, and they want to do it via way of having their own Epic Store app on those devices. It's quite clear that's the ultimate goal, particularly when they apparently got close to doing it on One Plus and LG phones running Android before Google put a stop to it (this is detailed in their legal papers and addressed in the videos I shared and The Verge cover it here too). 

 

I don't know if that's the end goal though.  I think Epic would be perfectly fine with Apple/Google controlling the store experience as they do today, just with a lower cut of the transactions.  Take that 30% down to 5 or 10 percent, and I think it keeps everyone happy.  Deploying their own store seemed like a way to work around a system that wouldn't change. 

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37 minutes ago, ChrisBardon said:

 

I don't know if that's the end goal though.  I think Epic would be perfectly fine with Apple/Google controlling the store experience as they do today, just with a lower cut of the transactions.  Take that 30% down to 5 or 10 percent, and I think it keeps everyone happy.  Deploying their own store seemed like a way to work around a system that wouldn't change. 

 

Really, little about the way Epic have behaved thus far, and what's buried deep in the legal papers, suggests that competing storefront apps on mobile is not their dream scenario. With that said, I think your outcome is absolutely a realistic way in which this could end, with both having to compromise, though probably not with a figure as low as 5 or 10 percent (that or Apple are forced to allow the kind of transactional alteration Epic made in Fortnite to be an acceptable option for developers to add to their software in future).

 

The challenge they have when it comes to that 30% figure is that Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and Steam all charge 30%. I had actually assumed Steam's cut was lower, but it's the same as everyone else, which is interesting because unlike the consoles Steam doesn't operate on a closed platform or (more importantly here I think) custom hardware like iOS does, so that in itself weakens Epic's argument somewhat. Apple's strongest asset might be the fact iOS is exclusive to their own hardware, which isn't true of Android of course which is an OS licensed out for various products from phones, to TVs, set top boxes...etc.

 

There is surely a debate to be had about the figure Apple take nevertheless, and I don't feel like I'm in any position to say whether Apple and Google taking 30% like everyone else is fair not not. In the immediate view of any content creator, the less they have to hand over to another party the better, obviously, but on balance you make these agreements based on what you feel you get in return, and I would genuinely like to hear from more smaller developers about whether 30%, while always higher than they might want, is in fact fair for what they get. Epic argue it's too much for the transactional management service Apple provide to developers hosting their products on the App Store, but that's not the only thing developers are paying out a cut for is it? What's access to Apple customers worth to a developer? Not being a developer myself, I honestly don't know.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Angry the Clown said:

Really, little about the way Epic have behaved thus far, and what's buried deep in the legal papers, suggests that competing storefront apps on mobile is not their dream scenario. With that said, I think your outcome is absolutely a realistic way in which this could end, with both having to compromise, though probably not with a figure as low as 5 or 10 percent (that or Apple are forced to allow the kind of transactional alteration Epic made in Fortnite to be an acceptable option for developers to add to their software in future).

 

Allowing apps to transact outside of the stores kind of goes against what Apple and Google have been trying to control under the guise of security and privacy.  I think allowing competing storefronts is definitely one option, but those would also have to come with comparable features to the first party stores (auto-updates, ability to process payments etc).  Even if there's a certification program for them that device manufacturers could institute, or maybe even a licensing fee to be included on a device, that would solve the problem for Epic at least, and let them court developers on their own terms.  This might honestly be the best option for everyone.  It's kind of what Samsung has with Google now, which is what makes that OnePlus deal extra shitty.

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1 hour ago, ChrisBardon said:

 

Allowing apps to transact outside of the stores kind of goes against what Apple and Google have been trying to control under the guise of security and privacy. 

 

I'm not so sure they have a strong argument there though. That you can make transactions via Amazon, Uber, fast food apps...etc without Apple collecting a dime may provide the legal wiggle room to argue that any app, or at least service based apps as f2p games could be classified, should be allowed to do the same. I'd like the convenience of being able to buy audiobooks through the Audible app, but I'm assuming it's the same Apple ToS that Epic are raging over that prevent me from being able to do so. 

 

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First off, it’s always interesting to see people like Sweeney and Cook simply email each other to do business, just like I would in any work day. They just do it a high high hiiiiigh level but the mechanics are the same.

 

And second that Sweeney would have a mistake in the correspondence about this. The very last sentence he references Apple users as Android customers. I’d have re-read it 10 times and not even sent it yet, but Sweeney just getting it done. 
 

Or maybe this was 4D chess move so Apple would know they were asking Google the same thing... 😆

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The Judge has temporarily ruled that Apple can block Fortnite but not Unreal Engine updates which is good news.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-25/apple-defeats-epic-s-effort-to-restore-fortnite-on-app-store

 

 

Sarah Jeong's lengthy thread is a great account of what was said during the session.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the judge's view of Epic's behaviour in general:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whole thread is well worth a read.

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https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/28/fortnite-emails-new-season-unavailable/
 

Epic has sent out an email to iOS and MacOS Fortnite players blaming Apple for the new season not being available. Apparently the Mac version is still available and could be updated, but Epic is choosing not to (I am not sure how accurate that is). The game will still be playable as Season 3, with limitations. 
 

Quote

Epic Games informs customers that they can still play the existing season 3 content, but progression is not possible and iOS and Mac players cannot play cross-platform with those on other devices. Players using Apple products cannot access the new cosmetic options, nor can they receive gifts from the new season unless they log into an alternate platform that has access to the season 4 content. Battle Lab, Duos, and LTMs are disabled on iOS, and iOS players are unable to complete new Quick Challenges and Style Challenges.

 

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5 hours ago, Graeme said:

Since I don’t have Fortnite on my phone, I’m curious. Did the update with the direct payment option get removed for existing players? I’d assume so, but I don’t remember that being mentioned. 

 

As far as I know, the payment option is still there for anyone who has the app on their iPhone or iPad.

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https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/28/apple-terminates-epic-games-developer-account/
 

Epic Game’s developer account has been terminated by Apple. This means their other games on the App Store such as Infinity Blade have also been removed, and in-app purchases will no longer work in Fortnite. 
 

This does not affect the Unreal engine, as it is under a different company, with a different developer account (and thus have not violated their contract/agreement). 
 

The best part is that this is currently featured on the App Store:

 

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Yeah, I’m sure PUBG doesn’t mind Fortnite being off the App Store.

 

I was a bit confused when I saw the news last night about Epic’s developer account being removed from the App Store. I thought the judge had granted Epic an injunction to prevent that from happening. Then I read that it only applied to the developer account and not the one that manages Unreal, and it made a lot more sense.

 

It’s a pity the users are the ones who have to suffer through all of this. I’m sure there are a ton of folks out there who play Fortnite on their iPhones and iPads who are now locked out of their favorite game thanks to all of this.

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I’m curious how this is affecting the Switch version of the game. The Switch version plays on the same servers as mobile due to the frame rate it runs at. If iOS players are no longer a part of the player pool, and presumably only players that have side loaded the game on Android have been upgraded to the new season, that could possible have a noticeable affect on the game.... or maybe there are enough players that it doesn’t matter. 

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  • 8 months later...

The trial is happening and with discovery, a ton of documents are leaking airing out some seriously confidential information including how much Sony hated the idea of cross play on the PS4 up until they were forced to do it and even then, they did it with plenty of caveats.
 


Full article linked in the thread. Epic confirmed that Sony are the only publisher enforcing this type of revenue share for cross play. When you see where a majority of Fortnite money comes from.....yeah. 

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