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paul h
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I don't like Apple's business practice with the Ipod.

 

Basically, they have this great well-loved piece of hardware (ipod), well-loved piece of software (iTunes), and well-loved online service. But they are all dependent on one another. I can't use music from the service on my existing MP3 player. I can't copy songs from Itunes to my existing MP3 player. I couldn't use songs from the service in anything other than Itunes... and on and on. For the love of God, why can't this industry agree on some standards so that all players, services, and hardware work together?

 

I don't want to invest money on a player that I can only use on one platform, or on songs that I can only use on one platform and device. No thanks Apple. The Ipod sure is pretty though.

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Actually there is a way to use the music you get from itunes on other players and so forth. what you do is burn the songs to a CD. Then use music match or something else to rip them as mp3's or wav or whatever. First thing i leanred while doing it :-)

 

capt

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I'm not into monkeying (NPI) around with DRM. I like to drag and drop stuff onto my DAP and not deal with burning CDs and so on. I also like a DAP that is driverless. I pack on pictures, videos, programs; all sorts of garbage that I might like to have or share with a friend.

 

I like the iPods, but vastly prefer my iRiver iHP-120. It has no DRM, FM, recording, backlit full-function LCD remote and optical in and out.

 

Also, keep in mind that 4 gig might not be sufficient. That's less than 40 CDs at alt preset standard. I thought 20 gig would be fine, but then I realized that I wanted to dump on tons of audiobooks, interviews and so on. I'm at 13 now and I've been conservative.

 

-j

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First. I have to ask you, if you're that concerned about underhanded business practices, I have to assume that you don't use Windows or other MS software, right?

 

Basically, they have this great well-loved piece of hardware (ipod), well-loved piece of software (iTunes), and well-loved online service. But they are all dependent on one another.

 

This is only partly true. First off, the iPod supports plain old MP3 files. Just yesterday I bought about 100 songs (MP3s) from two different online music stores, they are all on my iPod right now. There is nothing preventing you from using other services if you want to.

 

Secondly, iTunes also supports plain-old MP3 files, those same songs I downloaded yesterday played through iTunes last night at home.

 

I can't use music from the service on my existing MP3 player.

 

Now this is true. iTunes uses DRMed AAC files. AAC is Dolby's MPEG-4 audio format. But really, if you don't want to buy music from the iTunes music store you don't have to even if you own an iPod.

 

EDIT: As Darius noted, you're free to burn anything you buy from the ITMS to CD, and then make MP3s, although if you're concerned about sound quality this isn't ideal (unless you want to make 256kbit MP3s).

 

I can't copy songs from Itunes to my existing MP3 player.

 

I can't speak for sure for the Windows version, but on the Mac version it stores the audio in folders on my drive, I can do anything I want with those files.

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I can't believe I'm saying this,... but I wholey agree with Keith! Yikes :shock:

 

 

And, it's good that you can change your music to MP3's, but the process is kind of a hassle.

 

Nothing more to add right now because... I agree with Keith! :phew, yuck, icky:

 

;)

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AppleInsider.com is infamous for poorly-sourced rumors, so I'd take that article with a big ol' crystal of salt. I'd be really surprised, and a bit disappointed, if Apple added color screens and TV-connectors. Doesn't seem like the best idea, unless they're offering move downloads in some new format that makes download time bearable.

 

But, hey--- they've done stranger things.

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First. I have to ask you, if you're that concerned about underhanded business practices, I have to assume that you don't use Windows or other MS software, right?

Nope, I'm not being political. I'm being practical. Just because Microsoft does stuff like this, or whatever you were implying, doesn't make my discontent with this specific situation acceptable.

 

This is only partly true. First off, the iPod supports plain old MP3 files. Just yesterday I bought about 100 songs (MP3s) from two different online music stores, they are all on my iPod right now. There is nothing preventing you from using other services if you want to.

 

That is good, and I was aware of that. But all that means is that I'm only hitting my head against the wall four times instead of five times.

 

if you don't want to buy music from the iTunes music store you don't have to even if you own an iPod.

 

That's the point though. I don't HAVE to do anything. I'd LIKE to buy an Ipod, and I'd LIKE to use their service and software. But these problems keep me from doing that, and I wish that wasn't the case.

 

As Darius noted, you're free to burn anything you buy from the ITMS to CD

 

Great, I buy into Ipod/Itunes/service because its simple and intuitive, then I have to burn music to a CD and rip songs from it? Certainly possible, but why bother.

 

I can't speak for sure for the Windows version, but on the Mac version it stores the audio in folders on my drive, I can do anything I want with those files.

 

Same deal. It is very import to me to have softare that makes organizing, finding, and tranferring music easy and intuitive. Copying files from a file system is about 15 steps back from that.

 

I can't believe I'm saying this,... but I wholey agree with Keith!

 

I've changed my mind. Ipod rules. I just ordered one from apple.com.

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</rant>

 

As far as the Mini goes, I could never make do with 4GB. The real advantage of having more space isn't so you can listen to a week's worth of music on your morning commute, it's that you can put enough music on the player that no matter what mood you're in, there's always something to listen to.

 

I have 271 hours of music on my iPod, I never really need more than 2 or 3 hours of music to listen to, but having that much just allows me more choice in what to listen to.

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Well, I can't argue with your personal feelings about iTunes and Apple. I agree that they have tried to keep the systems proprietary, although it's not as closed as your initial post indicated, and you're free not not buy into it. I can argue with the factual parts of your post, so...

 

Great, I buy into Ipod/Itunes/service because its simple and intuitive, then I have to burn music to a CD and rip songs from it? Certainly possible, but why bother.

 

Well, I never have needed to do this, so there you go ;)

 

Same deal. It is very import to me to have softare that makes organizing, finding, and tranferring music easy and intuitive. Copying files from a file system is about 15 steps back from that.

 

Er I have no idea what you want then. iTunes does a nice job of automatically organizing all my music into folders by artist, and then by album. I can right click on a track in the iTunes interface and tell it to show me the song file on my HD. Using the file system is a great idea because I don't need iTunes at all to find my MP3s, although I can use it for that if I want to.

 

I make backups of my MP3s like this all the time, it's dead-simple.

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Originally posted by FreakTornado@Mar 19 2004, 12:47 PM

As far as the Mini goes, I could never make do with 4GB. The real advantage of having more space isn't so you can listen to a week's worth of music on your morning commute, it's that you can put enough music on the player that no matter what mood you're in, there's always something to listen to.

 

I have 271 hours of music on my iPod, I never really need more than 2 or 3 hours of music to listen to, but having that much just allows me more choice in what to listen to.

Ditto a million times over! A lot of people I know don't seem to get that. "How could anyone listen to 2,000 songs in one week?!" I can't, or at least I won't. But I like spinning up any tune in my collection on demand. I don't have to hope I loaded it on a couple days ago.

 

As for the iPod good/bad silliness, I hope I'm not throwing gas on the fire by sharing my thoughts:

 

1. The iPod sounds pretty good. I don't know if the mini will be comparable, but keep in mind that there as some assy sounding DAP's out there. Some also have relatively weak built-in amps.

 

2. The iPod has a nice interface on the unit. This is definitely a YMMV point, but generally speaking, I hear less complaints about its interface than with other DAPs. I was able to pick it up and do what I wanted without asking questions or looking at a manual.

 

3. The iPod lacks a number of features that I use often, like a backlit LCD remote and an FM tuner.

 

Overall, I tend to recommend the iPod to people who are either computer novices, don't need the features that come with other DAPs or don't want the hassle that can come with other DAPs. I get more features and flexibility with my DAP, but my needs don't necessarily meet yours.

 

Finally, let me reiterate what Camp and some others pointed out when I was shopping for my DAP: Many of the current generation are shockingly small. Even if you have your heart set on an iPod, give some serious thought to picking up the full-size one over the mini. At a certain point, you might discover that small is small.

 

-j

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For the love of God, why can't this industry agree on some standards so that all players, services, and hardware work together?

Quoting myself above, I think this covers where my angst is coming from. I am not anti-Ipod. I just a have a long history with Digital music at this point, more than most people, and am dissatisfied with the current state of things.

 

By coming out with such a great product, software, and service, Apple has emphasized the things I hate most about how digital music is handled today.

 

I've used many jukebox softwares and digital music players (MP3 players) over the years, for various reasons. It has been a nightmare because almost every time I switched players, I had to switch software. I could never just pick the best player and the best software (see my history listed below).

 

Anyway, I liked to use Itunes, but I can't use it to transfer music to my Nomad Jukebox or my Iriver. I'd like to use Itunes download service, but once again, I can't transfer music to my Iriver or Jukebox. Once again I have to use a specific piece of software with a specific piece of hardware. And I could buy into it, and everything would be fine for a while (if I bought an Ipod). But history shows (see below) that things won't be fine, that I'll have to go through it all again. Microsoft will come out with an awesome Ipod-Killer that plays video too, and NONE of my music from Itunes will play on that new play. I'm just sick of it.

 

I've used these players over the years:

Real Jukebox 1.0

Real Jukebox 2.0

RealOne Player

Windows Media Player

Media Jukebox

Music Match Jukebox

Creative Player Center

Winamp

Generic Sonic Blue Jukebox (Can't remember what it was called)

 

I've used these digital music players over the years (sorry if my names are off a bit):

RCA Lyra

Rio 600

Rio S800

Creative Nomad IIe

Creative Nomad Jukebox III

Rio Riot

Iriver IFP

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Microsoft will come out with an awesome Ipod-Killer that plays video too

 

And I wouldn't be surprised if it will only play WM files too, MS hates MP3 more than anyone. And WM DRM is way more robust than the AAC DRM. The AAC DRM is easily stripped out (I haven't done it, but because it's just an add-on to the format, it was easy for a hacker to write a utility to strip it out).

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just a small device that holds a decent amount of songs to replace my minidisc walkman, the ipod mini suits that just fine i think.

 

Well, I can't argue with the size of the Mini, it's really nicely proportioned. And the interface is the best yet, the button-wheel design is brilliant.

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That so-called "iPod Killer" will be anything but. At 11.5 ounces, three times as thick and twice as long as the regular iPod, that is simply too big for everyday use (that's what she said). $800? What are they thinking? With similar capabilities in the PSP, plus the ability to play games and a seemingly smaller form factor, I think this is dead on arrival.

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The funny thing is that it's not even in the same product category as an iPod, it has different functions, a different form-factor, totally different price class. It's like calling a Ford Expedition a 'Mini Cooper-killer' - it's a non-sequitur.

 

EDIT: But I see it will play MP3s, so I was wrong about that. It won't play QuickTime though (and probaly no Real, or MPEG formats), so get ready to get mad all over again about video content wars.

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That so-called "iPod Killer" will be anything but...

 

I knew I'd ignite something by uttering "Ipod Killer" in an Ipod thread

 

My only point is that past, present, and (most likely) future music players function in there own little propietary vacuum (e.g. Ipod). This makes the upgrade path less than ideal, unlike (for example) PDAs. I've upgraded from a Palm Pilot 1.0 to a Handspring Visor to a Dell Axim seemlessly. All my contacts, calendar, notes, tasks, etc... they all transfer perfectly from one to the next. My upgrade path for music players has been much more bumpy.

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