Jump to content
LCVG

Racing games and corner cutting


merlot
 Share

Recommended Posts

When MotoGP fist came out with LIVE, I use play all the time. However, I noticed a large number of people going off track and cutting corners. I would still stay on track and obviously lose. I would host games where I would turn the off road percentage up high, but would only get a few people in my rooms once they saw this. I eventually stopped playing because of this.

 

MotoGP2 was suppose to address the issue, and I can't comment on their implimentation, since I never played it, but apparently it killed the game.

 

Now with ToCA2 out, I'm seeing the corner cutting again. For example, last night I was in first place off the start, so I had the first turn line to myself. One guy completely cut the corner and ran into me as I completed my turn, knocking me to last place. Later, in a different race, he totally blew past me through a chicane (very tight s turn)... he went straight through it off road. Too me, that's cheating, since the game is designed to mimic real tracks, cars, and rules. In real life, that driver would be black flagged. But this is the video game universe we are talking about now. I guess I try to take it more seriously, but cutting corners to me is cheap.

 

Who agrees or disagrees?

 

(I know one particular person who use to agree, but now is on the other side of the fence... < cough > Kev < cough >)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MotoGP2 was suppose to address the issue, and I can't comment on their implimentation, since I never played it, but apparently it killed the game.

 

It did nothing of the sort. Their implementation was probably the best solution possible with a combination of a time penalty for that lap (affecting the scoreboards only, not the race results) and more slow down in the off track areas has kept everyone from running off the track on purpose in MGP2. The tracks were also altered a bit so that the barriers would extend out closer to the apex of the corner than they would in real life to discourage people further.

 

The only people who suffer are those who can't stay on the track. If you can't stay on the track, you shouldn't be topping the scoreboard or winning races.

 

Unfortunatly MPG2s scoreboards were only focused on lap time.... people were cutting in MGP1 not to pass, but to get a quicker lap time. TOCA on the other hand is more race position oriented, so the lap time penalty would not help matters at all. The best solution would probably be to use the other two things that MGP2 did though. If you get off the track it should slow you down more and be harder to keep control of the car as well as putting barriers where cars could make bigger cuts, even if it isn't true to life for that track.

 

BTW, I don't like people who cut corners, even though I do it a bit once in awhile (not usually big corners, maybe a chicane or two).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're playing a simulation of a sport, and the move you want to perform is against the rules of that sport, then you shouldn't do it. If the game has been written in such a way that it doesn't recognise this properly, its an exploit, not a legitimate tactic.

 

edit - so, to be clear, riding the kerbs is ok; they do it in real F1 all the time. Driving right across the grass is dealt with in real life by getting you a time penalty if, and only if, its deemed to have given you an advantage - if you're out there because you've messed up, and lost time getting back on the track, then the grass-running was its own punishment. And, obviously, deliberately ramming an opponent off the road is a black flag.

 

Wallriding is another common complaint, and I try to avoid doing it. But if I come out of a sloppy corner ahead of computer cars I'm not going to complain and restart the race. Its all down to intention, I feel - which is what makes it really difficult to enforce in an automatic way. If its an online race, and I feel like I've overtaken purely by barging someone into a wall, I'll apologise and probably let them back past again if there isn't any other competition in the race. Computer cars can just put up with it, though :twisted:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll be honest, when I play the single player in TOCA I cut some corners intentionally.

 

But online I would never do this, unless I was hopelessly behind in a race. But if I'm in the pack of cars, no way, it's too likely to cause accidents like you described.

 

I agree with Graeme, MotoGP2 had a good system for dealing with this. Maybe TOCA could add an option to slow cars down if they leave the track, that way it's left to the discretion of the host.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by merlot@May 4 2004, 10:29 AM

(I know one particular person who use to agree, but now is on the other side of the fence... < cough > Kev < cough >)

Yep. :D Worrying about these little things started to take the fun out of gaming for me, so I don't concern myself anymore. I still race as clean as possible, but I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch because the guy in front of me let his tires touch the grass. :roll:

 

And mike was basing his motogp comments from me. My favorite part was when your rear tire would start to bounce uncontrollably for no reason. :wtf: That's supposed to be a simulation. :roll: I'm glad you guys liked that game, but they went WAY overboard IMHO. Virtually everyone on my friends list stopped playing the game after a week, so I'm not the only one who put the game right into the return pile.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Baiter@May 4 2004, 12:16 PM

but I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch because the guy in front of me let his tires touch the grass.

Well I'm not gonna get upset by that either (shit happens), but when someone intentionally takes out an ENTIRE turn or turns, then it's no fun for me.

 

I will admit in single player, like Ed, I'll cut if need be just to advance the game. Plus most AI is too scripted for my taste and will knock you off course at times. Online against humans I remain on the track. I still bang into people accidentally when I don't see them (wish TOCA had mirrors), but never intentionally, unless thier name is Kevin :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the game is supposed to mimic reality should the developer make it so driving over a curb and through rough terrain eventually has some negative effect on your suspension settings/tires?

 

If that's not present in the game then I see no problem with people cutting corners. I guess it goes back to the old thread about our various perceptions of cheating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's the developer's job to make the rules of the game such that cutting corners penalizes you properly. If not, everyone's gonna do it, because it is the fastest way around the track. Race drivers in real life would do the same if there were no consequences. Black flags/time penalties/slowing the car down/etc. should all be in the game to address this IMO, otherwise it's not cheating unless the host of the race says so!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no problem cutting corners if it means getting around the track faster. Thats what its all about to me. If the game penalized corner cutting then by gollie I won't do it but there are many chicanes and tight corners that beg you to cut them in this game so I do (and so do all the top online drivers I've come across so far). However if a host specifies that he doesn't want people to cut corners then I dont do it. Its just anoying when this happens and you see people doing it anyway. I'm like "damn I could be up there with the leaders but I'm not allowed to cut corners". :)

 

I can understand the frusterations behind your post Merlot and I really wish the game had a penalty for corner cutting but as it stands now it doesn't so my motto is "if you cant beat em join em". :) Also dont confuse corner cutting with poor judgement. A bad driver is going to be a bad corner cutter as well. He/she will cut a chicane or corner with no regard for the cars around him/her. A good driver will do this manover and not bump into anyone. There is a difference.

 

I really dont see how corner cutting could ruin this game for anyone. Once you learn each track and learn the spots where you can and cant cut it becomes so natural to do it. I dont even think about it anymore really. I just consider it part of the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see your point of view Mike, but I find making my way through a chicane with speed and the right line to be much more rewarding than cutting it would be. It takes more skill than picking a straight line through it.

 

The above can be said about any corner really. Of course cutting a corner out will make it faster, but I find it takes more skill to successfully hit a corner right; braking before hand, following the correct line, and powering out of after the apex. A straight trip through the grass takes away all that and lets lesser drivers get lower lap times.

 

I refuse to "join them" as you and Kev have, but I thank Kev for sticking to my philopshy of no cutting when he hosts and for you and everyone else to respect that decision :tu:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by merlot@May 5 2004, 07:47 AM

I refuse to "join them" as you and Kev have, but I thank Kev for sticking to my philopshy of no cutting when he hosts and for you and everyone else to respect that decision :tu:

this isn't a rule when i host. :shock: :wtf:

If I ask you not to cut on a certain track, then please oblige, but if I don't ask go right ahead and drive thru the chicane because everyone else is going to be running through it anyway. :tu: (this includes me :lol: )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The real problem is when you have a mix of people who want to stay on-track and those who want to cut, that's when you get a lot of cars crossing paths and causing spin-outs.

 

If everyone cut corners or everyone stayed on-track it wouldn't a be a problem (although cutting-corners is more risky on some tracks). It's the mixture that is the problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with Mike and Dan.

 

If it's the fastest way around the track, I'm on it, cutting or not. Bashing into other cars is not the same issue - that's just poor driving, as others have already pointed out.

 

Really, this goes back to the original thread Camp mentioned, where cheating vs. exploits was discussed. I would argue that corner cutting in TOCA is not an exploit. Why? Because the developers knew about it (obviously through testing) and they had the ability to curb it (as evidenced by the fact that different cars behave differently off-road). Going off-road in a Global GT almost always means a spin, but going off in a DTM does little to hamper your stability. They could have made every car like the Global GTs but chose not to. They undoubtedly knew about corner cutting in some vehicles and chose to leave it as it. Thus, I don't think it's an exploit. It's certainly not the same as walking around leaned over in R63 to avoid headshots.

 

Also, I don't see how corner cutting is any less satisfying than braking, hitting the apex, powering out, etc. There's still tremendous practice/skill involved. It's about knowing which corners you can cut and in which cars. It's also about braking just enough (but not too much), it's about minimizing steering inputs, taking the right line through the grass, etc., etc. It's not just blindly jumping off-road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bashing into other cars is not the same issue - that's just poor driving, as others have already pointed out.

 

But they are closely related. Again, it's when you have a mix of 'cutters' and 'trackers' that most problems arise. I choose to (try to) stay on track because that is the more realistic expectation in a race, it's closer to how a real race would be run.

 

I'm not saying that one way is morally wrong and one is right, it's that when people do it different ways, the likelihood of causing problems is higher.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Sam P@May 5 2004, 12:09 PM

Also, I don't see how corner cutting is any less satisfying than braking, hitting the apex, powering out, etc. There's still tremendous practice/skill involved.

On the chicanes all you have to do is point your car to the section of track after the chicane and go straight. How is that skillful vs. hitting the chicane correctly? :?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by merlot+May 5 2004, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (merlot @ May 5 2004, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Baiter@May 5 2004, 10:27 AM

this isn't a rule when i host.

Seemed to be last night :?[/b]

I'm with FreakTornado, in that the problem isn't people cutting corners, but in people playing by different rules. In general I find this topic very dull, and don't really like to get into what makes an acceptable cut compard to what is considered unacceptable, let alone trying to police who's doing what in the room.

 

If I ask the room not to cut a chicane, I think it's a pretty clear instruction that everyone can understand. I'm just trying to get everyone on the same page with what the rules are for the upcoming race, but if I don't ask you, I expect you to find the quickest way around the course. If I do ask, and you're blatantly cutting a chicane, well that's when we have a problem.

 

In general the only rule I have is NO BUMPING, I know a lot of people don't agree with me, like when I let a 12 year babble on for 5 minutes asking questions about the game. :roll: But anyone that can be civil and keep to themselves on the track is welcome whenever I host. :tu:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bashing into other cars is not the same issue - that's just poor driving

 

How is skillfully bashing into someone to gain an advantage any different than cutting a corner to gain an advantage. In just about any racing game you can brake way later than you would usually need to, bash into a car or 2 to slow down and keep moving on in the process. If you're doing it on purpose, how is it bad driving?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by DrunkOM@May 5 2004, 12:43 PM

Bashing into other cars is not the same issue - that's just poor driving

 

How is skillfully bashing into someone to gain an advantage any different than cutting a corner to gain an advantage. In just about any racing game you can brake way later than you would usually need to, bash into a car or 2 to slow down and keep moving on in the process. If you're doing it on purpose, how is it bad driving?

I think this discussion is starting to degenerate into a battle of semantics and slippery slopes.

 

Anyone can define what's important to them and then draw conclusions from that. For example; if emulating a real-world race is important to me, then bashing into other drivers is bad driving and illegal. But if simply crossing the finish line first is important to me then that's neither bad form nor illegal, it's how you win.

 

Both sides can go around in circles until they're blue in the face without any resolution, because the goals they aim for are different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by FreakTornado@May 5 2004, 04:44 PM

Anyone can define what's important to them and then draw conclusions from that. For example; if emulating a real-world race is important to me, then bashing into other drivers is bad driving and illegal. But if simply crossing the finish line first is important to me then that's neither bad form nor illegal, it's how you win.

Good point, but keep in mind that a certain degree of contact is acceptable in NASCAR. Since I won't pause to wait for the inevitable "that isn't real racing" ;), I'll go on to say that for for the purpose of multiplayer racing, my choice it depends on what the game intends to simulate and the nature of the people I'm racing. Intentional contact is okay (and encouraged) in PGR2 with some people I raced, not with others. That's really what my decision turns on.

 

-j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really think this topic is starting to get "off track" here. Corner cutting can not be compared to purposely hitting other cars...come on. :) Seriously if you choose to contantly worry about these issues then how the heck are you going to have fun when you are racing? Just run a clean race and play with others that do the same. I think the core group of LCVGrs that have been playing lately are all on the same page its just the random public asshat that joins up that seems to ruin it for some people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason I worry about such issues is because I don't have much fun when people use corner cutting against me ;)

 

I suppose different strokes for different folks and we can justify what is right and what is wrong, but in the end I'm sure we can live with a happy compromise somewhere in the middle. :tu:

 

At the very least we now know where most stand on this issue, and what to expect :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...