NBA Live 2005 and ESPN NBA 2K5

[Chris The Rock]

I traded in some games (nice trade-in deals at my EB) and pre-paid for NBA Live 2005 and ESPN NBA 2K5.

 

I'm getting both this year because:

a). I always get the ESPN game, and it's always great.

. The Dunk Contest and other All-Star Weekend features in Live sound awesome.

 

Plus, both can be had for a total of only $60, since Live was reduced to $40.

 

Anyone else gonna try Live for the first time this year?

[Eldorado]

I'll be sticking purely with Espn. For $20 and that pedigree, should be great.

 

Sean

[fishepa]

For $20 I'll probably get ESPN as well.

[Starhawk]

I don't play many sports games at all, but I've always liked Basketball. I'll be picking up ESPN.

[stillfastasleep]

ESPN only. Too many other game purchase out there to warrant buying 2 basketball games. 2k4 last year was a disappointment so I passed on it, but reading some interviews with VC, it appears that they've listened to the fans and took notes.

[Cyberwoo]

Being a big fan of NBA 2K on the Dreamcast I think the series has gone downhill ever since. Sure feature wise the new games in the series are better but thats a given. I think the gameplay has been "EA'ized" somewhat. Players now have all these moves that feel canned and not fluid. I just remember NBA 2K feeling very fluid....it just felt right. Example: You could pass the ball on a fast break and you would tend to hit your players in stride but in NBA 2K4 when I make a fastbreak pass the player always stops or hesitates almost coming back to the ball. Its extremely anoying. Also I can't count the # of times I've missed layups because the player starts some crazy ass move and bricks the layup (sometimes smacking the backside of the backboard or flat out hitting the front of the rim!). Oh and dont get me started on the freethrow system they implimented in 2k4. Oh man its horrid. Whatever happen to the good ol double click method? Anyway after recently playing some friends at 2K4 we all agreed that it just didn't feel like the good ol Dreamcast days. Anyone else feelin me on this?

[MrJames]

$20 ESPN for me.

[The Daisy]

I might give Live a rental, but I'll be picking up ESPN.

 

Mainly I'm looking forward to March Madness and ESPN College Hoops for my b-ball fix.

 

Glen

[Andy Sheets]

Originally posted by Cyberwoo@Sep 28 2004, 10:58 PM

Being a big fan of NBA 2K on the Dreamcast I think the series has gone downhill ever since. Sure feature wise the new games in the series are better but thats a given. I think the gameplay has been "EA'ized" somewhat. Players now have all these moves that feel canned and not fluid. I just remember NBA 2K feeling very fluid....it just felt right. Example: You could pass the ball on a fast break and you would tend to hit your players in stride but in NBA 2K4 when I make a fastbreak pass the player always stops or hesitates almost coming back to the ball. Its extremely anoying. Also I can't count the # of times I've missed layups because the player starts some crazy ass move and bricks the layup (sometimes smacking the backside of the backboard or flat out hitting the front of the rim!). Oh and dont get me started on the freethrow system they implimented in 2k4. Oh man its horrid. Whatever happen to the good ol double click method? Anyway after recently playing some friends at 2K4 we all agreed that it just didn't feel like the good ol Dreamcast days. Anyone else feelin me on this?

Yeah. I was hugely impressed by the old Dreamcast games but the last couple of years the Sega games have not impressed me at all and the stiff gameplay has a lot to do with it. People talk about the great animation the games boast and I just don't see it.

 

That said, I will be weighing my choice very carefully as to which game to get this year, ESPN or Live. The cheap price on the Sega version makes it kind of tempting because I can buy just about any game if it's $20 or under, but lots of people I talked to were genuinely impressed by the improvements EA made to Live last year, so that's something I'll have to take a look at, too. I'm sort of bummed out that Microsoft isn't continuing their Inside Drive series because I thought that was quite an underrated series (although I understand why they needed to suspend their sports series since they weren't keeping up in terms of refining the look or gameplay and adding options). Not much razzle-dazzle but the on-court gameplay was really solid and the games I played on that were always the most statistically accurate compared to EA or Sega.

[exile]

I've never been a big fan of basketball gaming but I figure I can't lose with NBA 2k5. For $20 I got little to lose.

[Romier S]

One of the admins over at ESPN-Videogames.com has apparently not taken kindly to Hil's review ESPN Basketball and has written a rather interesting email to IGN. Thought I would post it here for those interested:

 

Sent: 29 September 2004 06:34

To: xbox_mail@ign.com <xbox_mail@ign.com>

Subject: Hilary Goldstein Review on ESPN NBA 2K5

 

I find it interesting how the review of this title has been managed on your site, particularly in the context of the competition between EA and VC for the consumer's dollar in the sports gaming genre. To be honest, I see Hilary Goldstein's review as the ultimate in "Yellow" journalism for reasons that I'll describe here and I firmly believe that Mr. Goldstein should be removed as a reviewer, especially from basketball related product

 

As a consumer, I have largely begun to ignore IGN reviews as they are rarely well-considered and are generally uniformed from the perspective of people who actually understand the nuances of the games being portrayed in virtual form. But the review of Mr. Goldstein is completely another matter as it stains the absolute integrity of the IGN site as an impartial observer of the gaming genre

 

In providing his opinion of the two games in question, NBA Live 2005 and ESPN NBA 2K5, Goldstein has taken two very different means in supporting his comments. In one, he has provided brief clips used to denigrate the ESPN NBA product. In the other, still captures provide the support for his claims. In recent weeks, more and more video has come online from both games, with the Operation Sports website showing some major in-game video in the last two days that paint a very different picture of the ESPN NBA franchise. It is in this vein that I find it interesting how video has been used to express Goldstein's points of view in the attempt to make his opinions more relevant

 

When reading Goldstein's review and linking to the support video, one of the main things that troubles me is the relative lack of context provided in the snippets. Goldstein makes a comment concerning how Shaquille O'Neal never spends any time in the paint on the ESPN title, supporting his claim with a snippet showing Shaq running to a point on the three-point line as his preliminary position in the offense, but no reference is given as to what offense is actually being run. This is noteworthy, especially given Goldstein's documented aversion to learning how to use play sets within basketball games. I offer this quote from his review on NBA 2K3 from two years ago:

 

Hilary Goldstein - NBA 2K3 Review wrote:

The 2K series has always used the same play-calling system. Each team has a set of offensive plays. You can watch the plays run out for you so you can see how they should be done. To be honest, does anyone even use this? For most it's probably confusing. It's one thing to be a sim, but this is where NBA 2K3 takes it too far. You don't need X's and O plays. There are only a few plays really run in the NBA and only those few generic plays that need to be in the game.

 

You don't need a bunch of different isolation plays or shots to set up the three. It would be better if the D-Pad were used to call one of four loosely scripted plays. On to get it inside, on to hit outside, a pick and roll, and an isolation play. Because I don't know anyone who uses all of these offerings or even tries. And the problem is that if you don't use these plays the offense often just stands around. This kills the flow of the game and is the reason why you will more than likely keep trying to drive the lane or throw it deep into the post.

 

 

This "four loosely scripted plays" methodology was incorporated by ESPN NBA Basketball 2004 to the veritable outrage of basketball gamers everywhere and was derided as a key reason as to why that title failed to meet the expectations of consumers last season

 

I question what I am seeing in the gameplay snippets being offered on your site for the simple reason that they are provided without context under the control of an operator who has taken the time to document his own shortcomings in understanding what is required by the gaming public to provide a sim of the game they love. Beyond this, I have numerous questions as to why video has been used to denigrate one product, while not being used to support your claims on another. Why has this been allowed to happen?

 

Should there not be some context given to what we are viewing as support on BOTH SIDES of the equation?

 

In spending time on the internet in order to be informed on the two products in question, I can tell you honestly that my perception has been that online video had begun strongly sway opinion on the two games. Many gamers looking at video online had begun to form the opinion that in key areas of player animation, NBA Live 2005 has not made any improvements from last year and that several key concerns, like the force field issue around players, player skating/hovering, claymation appearance and others had not been addressed at all. Beyond these, many questioned the CPU AI being offered by this product, pointing to in-game video featured on IGN's own site featuring the Houston Rockets. That video made many in online communities question the level of basketball knowledge being applied by the operators guiding the action in the video and even the CPU guided AI as the gameplay looked amateurish and seemed to support that the operators were without fundamental knowledge of core basketball concepts. With all of the glowing preview data being offered, that video made people wonder if even advanced CPU AI could overcome the inability of a neophyte operator with no "skills". Even with that, the online community was willing to give Live a mulligan based on the fact that some people just shouldn't be allowed to play some games. Obviously Hilary Goldstein is one of those

 

 

In comparison, the OS video of NBA 2K5 has shown remarkable realism, particularly in the hands of basketball savvy operators from OS. OS video of Live has shown more expert control being offered by the operators, and restored many gamers perception of that title, but has still highlighted the apparent issues with contextual and realistic animation as illustrated in the IGN videos

 

My challenge to you is to show us video of Mr Goldstein playing both games online, not only so that as consumers we can compare the two relevantly and fairly, but so that we can observe the level of competence that Goldstein has as an actual basketball gaming enthusiast, which may or may not alleviate the level of mistrust that he currently engenders as a reviewing "authority". The opinion is out there that he has no idea as to what he is doing with a basketball game. Why is he being allowed to review them as a "expert"?

 

In summation, I would offer that Hilary Goldstein is not fit to be an authority on basketball gaming. In general, he celebrates the things that make most players familiar with the game of basketball chafe, such as dunk contests and 24/7 modes while complaining about having to deal with the complexities of managing play calling sets and their execution. He offers "expert" opinion on the gaming experiences while playing on the lowest difficulty levels (see below), playing the games almost exclusively "out-of-the-box", with little interest in comprehending the nuances of the game.

 

Hilary Goldstein - NBA 2K5 Review wrote:

Over those fifteen games, each against a different opponent, almost all on the second hardest difficulty

 

 

Beyond all of this, he has failed to provide impartiality in his review of two competing products, as illustrated by the means with which he has allowed his opinions to be rendered. As a journalistic source, IGN should be ashamed that they can now only be seen as a site that was "bought" by EA marketing dollars

 

Be fair. Be impartial. Be journalists.

 

I look forward to your response

 

Online Tag - K Bomber

 

Source: http://www.espnvideogames.com/community/fo...r=asc&start=100

 

Not really suprising considering the source. I did find it to be an interesting read however and I'll link off to both reviews so you can read them and make your own conclusions:

 

NBA Live review

 

ESPN NBA2K5 Review

[Romier S]

Picked up NBA2k5 by the way. If anyone wants to hop online let me know.

[Chris The Rock]

I own both games and I've read both reviews. Plain and simple, I like ESPN better, but Live is good.

[Romier S]

I like ESPN better, but Live is good.

 

I played Live yesterday for about an hour at EB with a buddy. It's definitely a good game if you ask me. I'm no expert when it comes to b-ball but it was fun to play and controlled very smoothly. I played about 2 games of ESPN last night and I'm also enjoying it. It takes some getting used too as it has been a good while since I've played a b-ball game but once I started using the turbo button, setting up my passes etc. things got better. I do think the passing controls are a tad stiff, moreso than Live. I find myself having to really hit the pass button hard for the action to happen for instance. It feels as though it has more to with the player movement, wieght shift system etc. It's something I'll get used to and to be honest it may just be my inexperience with these games in general.

 

If Live were 20 bucks I'd more than likely pick that up as well. Both seem to be good contenders. At 39 bucks though I'll skip Live for now and probably buy it when a price drop happens.

[MastaRedSnappa]

I was a huge fan of the early NBA2K series on the Dreamcast. A few questions for owners of the latest ESPN version (the comments below are based on my experience with I believe it was NBA2K3 on the Xbox)...

 

1) Can you block shots from behind? I believe in 2K3, if a player got past you, you couldn't block his shot even if you were right behind him and using a good shotblocker (unless you switched to a different player and provided help).

 

2) Is there a button that automatically switches to the defensive player closest to the basket (or maybe it was the ball)? I seem to recall that in 2K3, you had to actually recognize which player was under the basket (or by the ball) and select that player by pressing the corresponding button. It made the last line of defense alot more difficult.

 

3) Did they lower the incredibly high number of steals that occur in a game?

 

4) Did they fix the 3 point shooting bug where certain players and teams (like Dallas) could make 80-90% of their shots behind the arc?

 

I'm interested in picking this up (especially at $20!) but if these problems are still in there, I might pass. Thanks.

[Chris The Rock]

1) Can you block shots from behind? I believe in 2K3, if a player got past you, you couldn't block his shot even if you were right behind him and using a good shotblocker (unless you switched to a different player and provided help).

 

2) Is there a button that automatically switches to the defensive player closest to the basket (or maybe it was the ball)? I seem to recall that in 2K3, you had to actually recognize which player was under the basket (or by the ball) and select that player by pressing the corresponding button. It made the last line of defense alot more difficult.

 

3) Did they lower the incredibly high number of steals that occur in a game?

 

4) Did they fix the 3 point shooting bug where certain players and teams (like Dallas) could make 80-90% of their shots behind the arc?

 

1. Yes. In fact, there are too many blocks, if you ask me.

2. Not sure.

3. Yes and No. There are still plenty of steals, but lots of reach-in calls and jump-balls.

4. Yes and No. I've never experienced 80%-90% 3-point percentage, but I did play a game with Detroit, and made 50% of my 3 pointers, and some of the ones I threw up were complete garbage.

[stillfastasleep]

Well, Teamxbox posted a review of NBA 2k5, and they scored it a 9.2. More importantly, it's simply a much better written review with a subtle slam at Hilary Goldstein and IGN even though they're not mentioned. I just went touche, well done, the fine art of the slam without being obvious.

 

"If you choose a CPU vs. CPU game in ESPN NBA 2K5 and study for a while what you see, and have even a slight clue about organized basketball, you will know that VC did their homework."

 

Obviously, the reviewer didn't think that Mr. Goldstein had a even slight clue.

[JoeyN]

Picked up ESPN Basketball today. For $20 i couldnt resist

 

capt

[Big Daddy Bling Bling]

Also picked it up. As someone who has not bought a basketball game since NBA2K (I did get Street and Ballers, but they don't count), take my opinion with a grain of salt. That said, it seems good but not great. It definately doesn't capture the feel of the sport as well as NFL2K5 and is just all-round a lower quality product.

 

My key complaint is the driving game. There isn't a good model in place for contact between players. It looks silly to see my guy haplessly running in place when a defender is in the way. He should bump the defender and try to drive around, but no contact at all happens unless the defender hops into "take the charge" mode. I haven't figured out how to do different "isomotion" moves yet, or even if you can decide which move to do.

 

Replays are chop chop choppy, and several other parts of the graphics are sloppy as well (coaches, sideline booty). The commentary is....odd. NFL2K5 seemed like a near perfect game of football to me, but this series seems like it has a long way to go.

[Starhawk]

I was walking through Best Buy today, and noticed that ESPN NBA 2k5 was on sale for $14.99! You can tell I didn't read any roundups this week.

 

I bought it, of course. What a deal!

[fishepa]

I bought it at Best Buy as well for $14.99. Can't possibly pass that deal up.

[Darius]

I picked NBA 2k5 up on saturday. I liked it on default pro ok but I found some great sliders over on http://www.operationsports.com in the forums. If anyones interested I can post more a exact location. After using the slider settings the game plays damn realistic. I've found it very fun so far.

[shine5555]

Please post some of the sliders....I can view limited websites at work

 

- Scott

[Darius]

I can't remember the rules on this. I think I got in trouble last time I posted sliders. I can't tell from the rules if I can post them + a link. The forums at operationsports requires a login just to see stuff but its not premium content by any means. If I can get a clarification I'll post the appropriate stuff.

[Romier S]

There is no problem with you posting the sliders you are using in the game Darius. If it's from another forum just make sure you post the source.