Clans - A Discussion

[Guest Bryan]

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[Buck]

Clans have a deleterious effect on the gaming patterns at LCVG

 

You want a deleterious effect on gaming here at LCVG? How about the way that the flavor of the week changes, well, every week. There's really only one game that lasted for a very long time, that game, RS3. Guess what? We had a clan here at LCVG for RS3. Did it stop non clan members from playing with clan members? No :thud:

 

It will probably go the way of the dodo, as other recent "attempts" have

 

Sure, it might, but what if it's around for a very long time? Will it exclude non members from playing the game? No. Anyone is free to schedule a game of their choice that they want to play in the Live forum. Sure there may be nights when clan members have a match, but clan matches don't take an entire evening, nor do they require the entire clan.

[Guest Bryan]

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[Chris F]

Maybe I should have added a "smiley" to my post, as it was a joke.

 

I in no way feel that this will segregate gameplay amongst LCVGers. There are plenty of people who won't be playing in clan games, and plenty of clan members who will be more than happy, myself included, in hosting regular games.

 

I hope some members don't actually believe that 100% (I don't even think 50%) of all Halo 2 games will be "clan only". Because if you do, you need to pull your... well, you get the idea.

 

I fail to see any difference between clan matches and all our other group play games. Noones excluded, and you don't have to play if you don't feel like it. It's a group activity and noones forcing you to participate, or not participate.

[Buck]

Originally posted by Bryan@Oct 27 2004, 10:30 AM

Regardless of the intent of the clan, this post conveys the mindset of segregated gameplay that clans foster. I am not criticizing Chris in any way, just trying to illustrate that the notion of this clan has already altered the way people are planning to play the game.

 

I can also see the inevitable post:

"Just found out that 'X' is unlockable by completing the single player game. We need to go ahead and get 'X' people who have unlocked it to play. If we don't have players who have unlocked 'X', we are going to be massacred in our next match."

Yeah, Bryan, we know what you think the clan will do to gaming on LCVG. What is also evident in your posts regarding clans is that you have never been a part of one, but in a way, you've been part of a clan ever since you started playing games with people on LCVG. Regardless, if you don't like the idea of the clan, do myself and other members of the clan a favor and don't click the link if all you want to do is crap on it. Thanks.

[General Zot]

I have a feeling "clan" is going to be a very loose term for our rag tag LCVG group. Probably the main advantage will be the ability to quickly see who in your "clan" is online via the Halo 2 XBL interface and to join games that LCVG peeps host that have reserved "clan" spots. I'm sure there will be a group that really wants to hone down and play other clans, but I'm sure there will also be plenty of short-bus matches as well.

 

I don't see anyone getting excluded by the other members here. This group is pretty friendly and mature. I've played in clan before where it was all business, this doesn't have that feel (it's better.) I used to switch sides to even up the massacre public matches and it would piss off clan mates (as the stat tracking would suffer since I was wasting our own clan mambers in the match.) The guiding principles here at LCVG seems to be have respect for other folks and have fun. It'll be good...

[Beer Monkey]

I have a feeling "clan" is going to be a very loose term for our rag tag LCVG group.

 

Then why have the non-competitive players join the clan? If most of us, me included, are probably never going to play 'official' matches against other clans/sites, then what is the benefit of the clan to us (and what is the benefit to the clan of us joining)? Am I missing something?

 

I'm not saying this to crap on the thread or stir things up, I'm just genuinely curious.

 

See, I've got this other problem...even after my most recent 'purge' of players that I don't play any more, I don't have room to add 30 more players (over half of the clan list is members that I don't have on my friend's list). I still play with some people from a couple of other sites plus some local people here in Cincinnati that don't have any interest in LCVG or other gaming forums. I've maxed out my friends list several times, and can never seem to get it pared down to less than 85 or so players.

 

Another question...does Halo 2 allow multiple clan memberships per player? I have some other friends who are considering a 'clan'...would I be allowed to join both?

 

I dunno...maybe I'm not the best person to be joining. And I'm not trying to be negative...maybe there is just no 'one size fits all' solution.

 

 

ps If this belongs in another thread, I'm fine with that...but I would like to discuss some of these issues.

[Romier S]

They encourage teamwork, they help a game have staying power

 

I want to touch on the second part of that: staying power. Which is something that almost every game on this forum has lacked for a while now. I find this "flavor of the week" syndrome to be far more detrimental than any clan you could create here and I believe that clans can play a major role in giving a game staying power. I'm not the most active Live Player in the world and I'll be the first to admit that as my job (and my preference for single player games) makes it hard for me to get online. Nonetheless I wanted to mention that I played Dark Age of Camelot for almost 2 years. You want to know why? I was part of a guild that regularly got together and played. It was the most fun I've ever had in an online game. I also played Socom for almost 5 months straight for the very same reason.

 

Halo 2 has the ability to support 100 person clans. That is a huge number of diversified gamers that can participate at their liesure, learn the game together and most importantly form a strong attachment to said game. With Calvin running it I think it will be a great success!

 

The shortbus was also mentioned earlier and I happen to love the idea behind it because I pretty much admit to outright sucking at most online games besides fighters. However I think it's good to play alongside people like Mr. James or Covak from time to time and especially in a clan situation. Think back to all of the tips and tricks that Covak used to post for Pandora Tommorrow. Think back to all of the times you got blasted by Mr. James in Rainbow Six or Ghost Recon. There is a ton of stuff you can learn from the skilled players here and I think a clan is the perfect setting to do it in. Also, I don't mean to single Mr. James and Covak out here but thier proficiency in Pandora Tommorrow/R6 comes directly to mind as a great example to use.(sorry guys )

 

To put it plainly I am supporter of a well run clan. I loved it when we used to play Socom in the HTF days because we always played for fun first and foremost. We played to win but it was always about having a good time and when we werent playing against another clan we were in a 16 player room practicing, talking and having a good old time.

 

 

EDIT: THIS TOPIC SPLIT FROM THE HALO CONTENT THREAD

EDIT 2: MERGED POSTS FROM HALO 2 CLAN THREAD

[Beer Monkey]

Some more thoughts.

 

Regarding the 'game of the week' syndrome, I think it goes deeper than that. We just have a lot of people that don't really play any more. I'm not blaming them as we all have different priorities and personal responsibilities, and that needs to be respected.

 

But in two weeks SW:Battlefront went from 20 players, to 6 players, and then by the third week no players at all. And 70% of those players didn't seem to have moved on to a new game that they had bought; they just weren't online at all, at least not during east coast prime time.

 

Now I'm probably going to sell the game...I thought I'd get at least six weeks of play (due to Halo 2), instead I got about nine days worth of play.

 

If 50 players sign up for the Halo 2 clan, and I actually have to delete some of my lower-volume (but still people I play with) friends from my list to make room for them, how many of these people (some of which I don't know from Adam) are still going to be playing online after a few weeks?

[Romier S]

One more thing that I wanted to note guys, I'm getting really tired of the general bitching and thread crapping going on as of late in some threads. I'm not singling anyone out, that is not my intention. Nor is it my intention to start a diatrabe on whether you agree or don't. I simply want it to stop. I've said it one million times and I'll say it one million more: We are here to debate and discuss things like adults and if you cannot handle that, then move along and don't bother responding. I'm sure we can state out opinions and viewpoints (both for and against) in a civil manner. Please remember that.

[Chris F]

Originally posted by Beer Monkey@Oct 27 2004, 01:19 PM

If 50 players sign up for the Halo 2 clan, and I actually have to delete some of my lower-volume (but still people I play with) friends from my list to make room for them, how many of these people (some of which I don't know from Adam) are still going to be playing online after a few weeks?

I believe that Clan listings (for Halo 2 at least) are in-game only, and not part of your Friends List. You can have your 100 person clan in Halo 2, and not have them all listed on your Friends List.

[Romier S]

FINAL EDIT: MOVED TO THE GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA AS CLANS PERTAIN NOT ONLY TO XBL BUT PS2 ONLINE AND PC GAMING.

 

Regarding the 'game of the week' syndrome, I think it goes deeper than that. We just have a lot of people that don't really play any more. I'm not blaming them as we all have different priorities and personal responsibilities, and that needs to be respected.

 

Most defintily it does Michael, but don't you feel that lack of interest has a big hand to play in that also? Sure we all have our responsibilities that we need to take care of in real life but I think having something to really come back to (a well run clan for instance) helps in generating interest for a game.

 

I have a question to propose and I'm genuinely very interested in hearing the replies from our membership and I'd like to hear experiences good and bad alike:

 

Have you ever been in a well run/organized clan? To take it one step further, have you ever been in a clan/guild (in an MMO) period?

[Buck]

Originally posted by Ruffneck+Oct 27 2004, 01:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ruffneck @ Oct 27 2004, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Beer Monkey@Oct 27 2004, 01:19 PM

If 50 players sign up for the Halo 2 clan, and I actually have to delete some of my lower-volume (but still people I play with) friends from my list to make room for them, how many of these people (some of which I don't know from Adam) are still going to be playing online after a few weeks?

I believe that Clan listings (for Halo 2 at least) are in-game only, and not part of your Friends List. You can have your 100 person clan in Halo 2, and not have them all listed on your Friends List. [/b]

I'm pretty sure this is how the clan function in RS3:BA worked as well.

[Beer Monkey]

I believe that Clan listings are in-game only, and not part of your Friends List. You can have your 100 person clan in Halo 2, and not have them all listed on your Friends List.

 

If so, that is an actual benefit to casual players...could be good news.

 

Though Chris was the first to say that he was joining to have somebody to play with, I have to admit it is the exact and only reason I joined (since competitive play is not a high priority for me, if at all).

[Beer Monkey]

Have you ever been a well run/organized clan?

 

Yeah, I was in a Quake/QuakeII CTF clan for a couple of years. I enjoyed myself a lot but not necessarily more than my regular Friends-list Live play recently.

 

Actually my Quake clan eventually dissolved and it was largely due to conflicting priorities; some of the players wanted the general focus on competive play and scrimmages, and some just wanted to have fun playing with the same people.

 

I think having something to really come back to (a well run clan for instance) helps in generating interest for a game.

 

Some might need something to come back to, but I don't need any additional motivation. I'm already logged in almost ever night for at least an hour or so looking for some games.

[Chris F]

Originally posted by Beer Monkey@Oct 27 2004, 01:27 PM

Though Chris was the first to say that he was joining to have somebody to play with, I have to admit it is the exact and only reason I joined (since competitive play is not a high priority for me, if at all).

I reiterated that I was JOKING about that. I'm joining because the more I thought about it, the more I like the idea of an organized, competitive game, whether or not I suck at it or not!

 

Plus I feel that if we're good enough, SmartJoy Frags won't pose too much of an issue for us all.

 

I in NO WAY felt like I was being excluded from playing Halo 2, or felt like I was going to be left all alone playin Halo 2.

 

I've been in a few clans (Mech:Mercs, Quake, Quake2), but not recently. Organized games were fun, and competitive games, although we lost a lot, were great as well. I think being in a clan makes some people strive to be better, in order to help out the team, and that in turn makes for a great and fun game.

[Beer Monkey]

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone is being 'excluded' here, that implies some kind of closed enrollment.

 

I just think that the majority of LCVG Halo2 games will end up being clan games, so I joined. Not for fear of being 'left out', but simply to maximize the number of games that are available to me. Hopefully I'm wrong and we have tons and tons of casual non-clan games.

[Romier S]

Some might need something to come back to, but I don't need any additional motivation. I'm already logged in almost ever night for at least an hour or so looking for some games.

 

That's cool, but my question was very generalized as most users are not online as often as you are. Some folks may need/want that kind of motivation to keep them coming back to a game. I don't see any reason to deny them that ability on LCVG.

[Chris F]

Originally posted by Beer Monkey@Oct 27 2004, 01:40 PM

I just think that the majority of LCVG Halo2 games will end up being clan games, so I joined. Hopefully I'm wrong and we have tons and tons of casual non-clan games.

When I say "Clan" games I'm thinking competitive games, one clan vs. another. Just because a bunch of us are online practicing, scrimmaging, whatever, does NOT mean other players can't come in and join the game.

 

Obviously we aren't going to play playing clan games every night, so unless there's a problem, I don't see why anyone would feel exculded when 90% of the games would be open to them.

 

I also think an "Official" LCVG Clan is a great way to draw in more people to this forum. It's a great way to get our name out there and attract some more attention.

[Carlucci]

I think Clans are meaningless unless we go against other clans. Otherwise, all we are doing is slapping the LCVG brand on our players, which is fine. Nothing wrong with that.

 

But in a really well run clan, we would have a General who would select the best of the best to go up against other clans to make a name for LCVG and put a good showing to the rest of the world.

 

Then upon receiving or making challenges to other clans, we would pick up the x number of players from our clan, (best of the bunch), and do battle.

 

 

Carlos.

[Romier S]

I think Clans are meaningless unless we go against other clans.

 

Agreed Carlos.

 

But in a really well run clan, we would have a General who would select the best of the best to go up against other clans to make a name for LCVG and put a good showing to the rest of the world.

 

I agree again but with a provision. In a well run Clan we would have a General that would have a rotating schedule of interested players to participate in clan battles so as to not exclude clan members. When you start putting stringent "only the best players should play" guidelines is when you create a kind of "clubhouse" effect that I think many non-clan people fear. It also creates a very "political" climate which will ruin any fun you can have in a game. It becomes a chore. More like a job than a hobby.

 

Clans can include causal players that may not be interested in doing clan battles but want to practice and learn from the better skilled members. Those folks may not have a need to be a part of a clan period though. That does not mean they cannot play with clan members or join in with regular friends to have a good time. It also does not mean that one day those casual players that are a part of the clan won't have the aspiration of playing in a clan match and they should not be denied that opportunity EVER. Hell, with 100 members in a Halo 2 clan I am sure we can run multiple practice sesssions and clan matches.

 

I'll say it again though, having fun and being competitive are not mutually exclusive. You can do both and run a healthy clan. It's one of the main reasons I am happy Calvin stepped up to run the Halo 2 clan because we see eye to eye on that viewpoint and I know he can do it from prior experience. :tu:

[Buck]

Originally posted by Carlucci@Oct 27 2004, 02:34 PM

But in a really well run clan, we would have a General who would select the best of the best to go up against other clans to make a name for LCVG and put a good showing to the rest of the world.

That's not my idea of a well run Clan at all. You don't need the best of the best to face off against another Clan to get your name out there, you need a group of people that understand it's a game and that there will always be a winner and a loser. It's how you handle yourself in those situations that will determine whether or not your Clan makes a good showing.

[Beer Monkey]

When you start putting stringent "only the best players should play" guidelines is when you create a kind of "clubhouse" effect that I think many non-clan people fear.

 

I also think some "non-clan people" may fear a dearth of "just for fun" pick-up games. If every time you go to play you have other players trying to 'instruct' or 'tutor' you on how to be a more competitive player or master a tactic or level, it can change the entire flavor of the matches.

 

I suspect that we have a lot of people joining the clan with completely different expectations. And for the record, I haven't dropped out, and probably won't providing there is no detrimental effect on the forum. I'll wait and see, optimistically.

[Romier S]

I suspect that we have a lot of people joining the clan with completely different expectations.

 

Which is exactly why I wanted to get this thread up here. So that we can outline what we expect from clans in general. I'm hoping Calvin also adds his thoughts as he will be leading the Halo 2 clan. Speaking as someone that played with him and this group over in the HTF clan, it was one of the best clan experiences I ever had.

[Beer Monkey]

In the future you might want to make the expectations clear before recruiting.