Game storage for the next-gen (DVD-9 vs. Blu-ray)

[bendak]

Came across this and found it pretty interesting.

 

We find that there is often a misconception about how big an Xbox 360 or Xbox title really is. For example, people often assume that Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind has a large filesize since it contains an extremely large gaming environment. However, Morrowind is actually one of the smallest games on the Xbox, only 900 megabytes big.

 

In this article, we attempt to provide some concrete numbers to educate the debate between Microsoft's use of the DVD9 and HDDVD formats, and Sony's use of Blu-ray discs.

 

We take a look at the known sizes of first-generation Xbox 360 titles, and how much space they actually use on the DVD9 format. Then, by averaging the year-over-year filesize of the original Xbox's games released in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2005, we figure out exactly how much Xbox titles have grown over the course of the console's life-cycle.

 

Assuming trends hold true, we then make an educated guess at whether or not the DVD9 format is really in danger of being restricting, or whether or not the entire debate is a bit of a red herring.

 

Some other choice quotes:

 

The original MechAssualt was 3.42 gigabytes, but MechAssualt 2 was only 2.29, a nearly 33% reduction in size. Yet MechAssualt II is considered a better looking game.

 

To start with, the original Xbox also uses DVD9s to store data, just like the Xbox 360. It's important to note not only the size of the games, but the percentage of space taken up by the average title.

 

What you find is this:

 

* Average for 2001: 1.81 gigs (21% of disc)

* Average for 2002: 2.17 gigs (25% of disc)

* Average for 2003: 2.47 gigs (29% of disc)

* Average for 2005: 3.20 gigs (37% of disc)

 

 

Total size increase between 2001 and 2005 was: 56%

Large games may simply be the result of poorly optimized programming, not an indication that they couldn't be smaller if they had to be, and still deliver the same experience.

Procedural synthesis is has a great deal of potential to effect the Xbox 360's filesizes. In short, procedural synthesis is a way of producing graphics that Microsoft has pushed heavily with the introduction of the Xbox 360, including specific hardware functions designed to do handle procedural synthesis. It uses algorithms to produce high quality graphics out of extremely small files. For the best example of what procedural synthesis can do, check out .kkrieger, which means Warrior in German. This first person shooter is built almost entirely from procedural graphics, and as a consequence occupies about 96 Kilobytes of space. Yes, the game responsible for this screenshot here, here, and here could fit almost 14 copies on an old-fashioned 1.4 megabyte floppy disk.

 

...

 

Procedural synthesis is the reason that Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion has such brilliant forests.

 

I guess the moral of the story is, more is always better...but in the end it's not entirely necessary yet.

 

Read the whole article here:

http://www.gamesfirst.com/?id=1132

 

IMO, the biggest problem for storage is audio. But with modest compression (say 128Kbps or 192Kbps) you can fit 18 hours and 12 hours of audio into 1GB, respectively. Oblivion is said to have 50 hours of spoken dialog, assuming it is compressed at 192Kbps that's about 4GB of space. We all know that 50+ hours of unique audio is a rarity though.

[iainl]

The article itself is blocked by the proxy here, so I can't read it. But I take it when they were doing this that they've taken a look inside the files to get a real answer?

 

Only, as someone who transfers his PS2 games to the hard drive, I'm aware that many games there that appear to be the full 4Gb for a single layer contain dummy files designed to pad the data out, pushing the important stuff out to the outside of the disc where loading is faster.

 

Plus, of course, the glorious Gradius V, one of the nicest looking titles on the machine, comes on a CD. As does Frequency, a game entirely based around music - so audio doesn't necessarily make for giant titles.

[dogbert]

It should be noted that the data size for things like textures is jumping through the roof - those fancy normal maps aren't small. The amount of assets for nextgen games is growing massively. Proceduraly generated textures/assets will help but isn't a catch all solution.

[GreenMonkey]

More verification of the pointlessness of the blu-ray drive in the PS3 from a gaming standpoint. From a HT standpoint or a Sony-bluray-marketing-strategy standpoint it makes sense, but from a game standpoint, not at all.

 

Classically, the games that suck up so much space are RPGs with a lot of full motion video, voice and music. Look at FFVII back in the day - 4 discs! I've yet to see one single RPG go onto 2 DVDs. For that matter, I'm hard pressed to come up with any game that goes onto 2 DVDs. Are there any?

[iainl]

Myst 4 on the PC was 2 DVDs; I'd imagine that 5 was just as big if not bigger.

 

Personally, I'll start worrying when we need to disc swap as often as we used to playing Monkey Island 2 on the Amiga, but not much earlier.

[Tom]

But why even be in the disc swap situation in the first place? If they can expand the capacity before the requirement is "past due" and we are swapping discs halfway through Halo 3 (just an example) then I think that is better.

 

I always encourage the industry to anticipate future requirements and have the infrastructure in place to be ready. Makes my life easier. With Next-gen here now and HD game content, I have a feeling that capacity will become an issue soon enough.

[dogbert]

If they can expand the capacity before the requirement is "past due" and we are swapping discs halfway through Halo 3 (just an example) then I think that is better.

 

They can't, unfortunately, on the 360.

[foogledricks]

I think we'll find that this is a non-issue except for 720p video seen in games like Ninja Gaiden 2 or other Japanese-developed games. If developers instead make real-time cut scenes, they can avoid that problem. But if they NEED their video cut scenes, then we'll have to live with 2-3 discs for those games. But I think there will be very few of those. This simply won't be an issue for customers like us. It serves more as an issue to latch onto so as to spark Sony vs. Microsoft debate.

[iainl]

Keith, you're an expert on Itagaki's work - how prevelant are cut-scenes in the first XBox Ninja Gaiden game? I keep umming and aahing about picking up NG: Black at some point, but as I've mentioned before, I hate all that stuff.

[foogledricks]

Keith, you're an expert on Itagaki's work - how prevelant are cut-scenes in the first XBox Ninja Gaiden game? I keep umming and aahing about picking up NG: Black at some point, but as I've mentioned before, I hate all that stuff.

They only appear before/after boss fights and transitions between levels. So, I think there are 16 levels, so lets say that there are maybe 22 videos in the game (that is a guess, I think you can actually view each individual video independently from the menu, so if someone else wants to count that for a more accurate number, go to school).

 

Itagaki said that space will be a problem, since for DOA4 he was concerned about the video taking up all the space. And you can't tell an artist like that NOT to use a particular tool to make their content. Crafting a 3D scene in 3DSMAX or Maya is different than doing so in a propietary game engine.

[bendak]

It should be noted that the data size for things like textures is jumping through the roof - those fancy normal maps aren't small. The amount of assets for nextgen games is growing massively. Proceduraly generated textures/assets will help but isn't a catch all solution.

Well they took the sizes of some 360 games - everything from sports to first person to fighting - and if 360 games expand at the same rate as Xbox games (56% average over 4 years) then 360 games will still fit as the average comes out at a little over 6GB. MS's development tools are supposed to have a lot of methods for texture/asset compression.

 

Itagaki said that space will be a problem, since for DOA4 he was concerned about the video taking up all the space.

Well he obviously wasn't too worried, because DOA4 clocks in at 5GB even with all that video. VC-1 compression is your friend

[iainl]

Thanks Keith - provided they don't run too long (or can be skipped), I'll have to grab it once I'm allowed to buy games again.

[Blind Squirrel]

But why even be in the disc swap situation in the first place? If they can expand the capacity before the requirement is "past due" and we are swapping discs halfway through Halo 3 (just an example) then I think that is better.

 

How many dollars better, though? These new formats are more expensive right now, and even if it doesn't show up in the initial console price you will be paying for it somehow. Sony might be willing to eat some of the cost in order to push Blu-ray right now, but MS doesn't have a format to push.

[JFo]

Keith, you're an expert on Itagaki's work - how prevelant are cut-scenes in the first XBox Ninja Gaiden game?

 

I ran through the game in my head and I counted 16 pre-rendered cut scenes in the first Ninja Gaiden. The rest are all done with the in-game engine. I'll double check on that when I get home tonight.

[foogledricks]

I ran through the game in my head and I counted 16 pre-rendered cut scenes in the first Ninja Gaiden[/i']. The rest are all done with the in-game engine. I'll double check on that when I get home tonight.

I assume that he hates cut-scenes overall, whether pre-rendered or not. I'm pretty sure you can skip over them. But frankly, NG is such a ridiculously fast action game, the cut scenes are a nice break from it all, and they are beautiful. Not too long either.

[Angry the Clown]

but MS doesn't have a format to push.

 

Ah but they kind of do though. Not a format they can call their own (though Blu Ray isn’t just a ‘Sony’ format of course), but you'd better believe they are seriously pushing HD DVD in as many ways possible. It is important to them HD DVD succeeds over Blu Ray as they do have a strong investment in it potentially becoming the next format of choice.

 

Their VC1 codec is being steadily adopted by the majority of content providers backing the format, their iHD software is implemented into HD DVD to provide interactivity on every disc, they've proclaimed it the only HD format that will be fully compatible with Vista, they're offering money to PC software developers if they pledge support for HD DVD, and now they're hoping an add-on drive for the 360 will help solve the problem the PS3 boasts in offering gamers access to a next gen disc format.

 

If Microsoft get worried about storage and/or REALLY wants to ensure as many people as possible go and buy this add on they can always bundle Halo 3 with the HD DVD drive. I'd imagine that'll ensure the majority of 360 owners get the device (it doesn’t even sound like an unrealistic prospect to me either).

[ChrisBardon]

Yes, because a larger game ALWAYS means better. After all, Phantasmagoria came on 7 CDs, and it was such a great game...

 

Honestly, I really don't care if I have to switch discs halfway through a game. The only problem I have with multi-disc games is when you find out halfway through that there's a problem with your second disc.

[Tom]

They can't, unfortunately, on the 360.

 

Correct... for now. I just grabbed Halo 3 as an example without considering that MS will have to release that on DVD9 unless they shift their stance on how HD-DVD works as an addon.

 

How many dollars better, though?

 

I can't answer the question of how many dollars better. In fact, that is not even in the scope of what I was originally talking about. I only made my points to merely suggest that we do not know what the size implications that this new era of higher resolution HD gaming could bring. We had to move from CD to DVD in the console world, we most likely will need a higher capacity at some point as well, if that is within the next couple of years I will be happy Sony included it up front.

 

In concerns to pricing, though, there was a time (about a day before the 360 pricing announcement), when most gamers said anything over $299 for a console on release is ridiculous. But at this point, I don't think anybody in here thinks they paid too much for what they've gotten with their 360 Premium ($399). All that to say, I think as a demographic we have shown the industry that they were underestimating how much we'll pay for a good console at launch, and that unless Sony comes out priced closer to what the standalone Blu-ray players are going to cost, the price will not be much of a concern. Especially if they back it up with the games. But pricing speculation belongs in another thread, so I'll shut up now.

[bendak]

they can always bundle Halo 3 with the HD DVD drive. I'd imagine that'll ensure the majority of 360 owners get the device (it doesn’t even sound like an unrealistic prospect to me either).

It sounds pretty unrealistic to me.

 

"Want Halo 3?" Give us 250 dollars." Talk about bad PR.

 

Halo 3 will fit on one disc...mark my words!

[Angry the Clown]

It sounds pretty unrealistic to me.

 

"Want Halo 3?" Give us 250 dollars." Talk about bad PR.

 

Well we don’t even know if the drive will cost that much yet, but generally I was commenting in terms of whether they get to a real point of desperation in wanting to help get HD DVD into peoples homes. It would basically come down to how much a loss they’d be willing to make on the drive, and MS has shown they’re not too bothered about making hardware losses if it helps them secure a stronger position in the marketplace.

[bendak]

Well, the only thing I have for reference is that the first HD-DVD drive for PCs has a MSRP of 500 dollars, and that's without an external enclosure.

 

I can't see them bundling that with a $50 Halo 3. Halo 2 sold 5 million copies in a month. So assuming they only lose $100 per drive, that's still $500 million in losses. :eh

 

So yes, if they were utterly desperate it's a move they could possibly pull off but I think something like a mail in rebate if you buy Halo 3 and the drive seperately is more realistic.

[Josh]

I honestly can't believe people here aren't unanimous in believing that more storage space is always better. It boggles this technophile's mind. There's really no way to say it any other way; we all know more headroom is better in terms of storage capacity.

 

In my opinion, this shouldn't even be a debate.

[Angry the Clown]

Well, the only thing I have for reference is that the first HD-DVD drive for PCs has a MSRP of 500 dollars, and that's without an external enclosure.

 

Just a side note: NEC have actually said their drive will come in at well bellow the original estimate of 500, that’s for a play only drive. For a writable drive, obviously we're talking more.

 

So yes, if they were utterly desperate it's a move they could possibly pull off but I think something like a mail in rebate if you buy Halo 3 and the drive seperately is more realistic.

 

Mmmm, though we should probably stop there as far as dreaming up more hypothetical situations go as far as Halo3 is concerned or else we'll never stop - and the reality is it'll come on a DVD9.

 

I really don't think the 360 will suffer much. I expect the majority of PS3 games to come on DVD9 discs, and I believe it'll be enough for one more generation in gaming. PS3 of course has the option to grab more disc space with BD-Roms, and it is always good to have more space but being stuck with DVD9 isn't going to do the 360 much harm.

 

Even with this chap from Toshiba mouthing off at CES that the add on drive will be used for games I still don't see it happening, unless as I say, MS feel the need to ensure it happens in order to secure an advantage in a ridiculous format war that’s now needlessly dragging not one, but two consoles into the battle in order for one group to try and assert itself a winner - all at the cost to the consumer. I’m still angry about that the most. I am all for more storage, but to add it to two pieces gaming hardware, when these new disc formats are expensive and unproven (Blu Ray especially so) is pretty damn irresponsible.

[Josh]

I really don't think the 360 will suffer much. I expect the majority of PS3 games to come on DVD9 discs, and I believe it'll be enough for one more generation in gaming. PS3 of course has the option to grab more disc space with BD-Roms, and it is always good to have more space but being stuck with DVD9 isn't going to do the 360 much harm.

 

I suppose it depends on how you define "suffer." It won't suffer, but it also won't benefit from the extra headroom as I believe PS3 will. One may find himself swapping discs or getting smaller missions in the new GTA. Is that torture and suffering? Perhaps not, but I've heard people here complaining about having to get up just to hit a button on an AV switch, so don't tell me you don't mind swapping discs in the middle of a gaming session.

 

In the end, I'm guessing we won't really see this all that much, as developers will work around the limitations when they reach that point.

 

This could, of course, mean that we'll all suffer in the way that Xbox users "suffered" from PS2 ports inasmuch as PS3 games could be optimized to run on both systems, and we'll just see a bunch of Sony extras on the BD-ROMS like game demos, movie trailers, etc. Meanwhile we'll end up with levels that could have been bigger, textures that could have been more detailed, and games that could have been longer.

 

In the end, though, I think we all "suffer." No one's getting slapped around here or hogtied to a cellar wall, but... yes, we'll all suffer. Progress, baby. Give the developers something to live up to.

 

Have you ever met a developer who said, "What the hell am I gonna do with all this space?" I know I never have. Give me a hard drive, iPod, DVD-r, whatever, and I'll fill it up - and I'm not even a developer.

[Angry the Clown]

In the end, though, I think we all suffer. Progress, baby. Give the developers something to live up to.

 

I’m not going to argue with that, but what I don't agree to is rapidly moving to integrate two unproven storage mediums and dragging them into game consoles at this moment in time, when one of those formats is going to die on its arse.

 

I just don't think for this new generation of consoles that the new disc technology is really ready to be implemented into gaming even if developers long for more storage. Unless rumours are true that PS3 titles will come on some form of proprietary version of a BD Rom (neither 9gb or 25gb in size, but somewhere in between) then I still think the majority of titles will be on a DVD9 and we’ll be waiting until the PS4 and Xbox 2047 until we see games embrace higher storage capacities. By then we’ll have one proven format at a point where the disc manufacturing costs are acceptable to developers and publishers.